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I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby Zardoz » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 10:35:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'T')his thread speaks to a fundamental aspect of PO IMO...Over the past 2000 years or so, we have become masterful at obscuring the mechanism from the public, and presenting only the outcome...The underpinnings for our industrial/information society are all but transparent to the vast majority...Little or no thought is given to the process itself... only the outcome is noted.

A remarkable post. This is the basic principle of the doomer manifesto. We're going to lose the "underpinnings", and everything will collapse as a result.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..I fear the planet of the apes scenario... desperate people with nuclear weapons is an anathema...

Scary thought, indeed, but I don't see it coming to this. Nobody will want to be the first to unleash the genie, because everyone on this planet knows that it will only end one way, with all involved parties no longer existing.
"Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby Aaron » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 10:59:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')cary thought, indeed, but I don't see it coming to this. Nobody will want to be the first to unleash the genie, because everyone on this planet knows that it will only end one way, with all involved parties no longer existing.

I didn't think the world would let the US get away with Iraq either... I'm not sayin... I'm just sayin...

Forced energy poverty for nuclear capable groups with a long history of brutality & war? :( "I'll take Broadway Shows for $800 Alex."
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby Concerned » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 11:36:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pigleg', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'N')ope, just figuring out where everyone is coming from.
Okay then. You might want to read more of the board before you leap into calling folks hypocrites. Just FYI. :)
Right on, especially considering your exceptional eyesight, you really have no excuse not to have read it all.

No need to read it all. Just enough to figure out that this is a complex subject with a wide group of individuals, who have different opinions on the subject matter and how it will affect us.

Im guessing the original poster was just upset that the ponzi scheme of everlasting growth, mass consumption and comfortable retirement on a fat stock market pension had recently been shattered. Otherwise a more measured response would have been in order.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."
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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby Pops » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 11:56:03

I dunno if VM is trolling or not clueless – I’ve ranted along much the same PO-Computer-Fantasy-Game line myself!

Of course I’m no different and won’t sit here and type that everything I do is because of PO, it isn’t. I am living where and doing what I wanted to do anyway, PO (and a bunch of other factors even more) just moved up the timetable. But I think about PO when I do stuff – it’s like packing a backpack, as many items as possible should have more than one use, so I try to make things with pre-PO and post-PO in mind.

Heck, I have 2 pick-ups with big fat V8s, but I also have some 'lawn ornaments' like a horse drawn corn planter and a half-built buckboard. No I ain’t tough, not real tough anyway but I ain’t a one trick pony either - like Red Green says; if a man isn’t handsome he should at least be handy.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'E')ven if you achieved zen-like disconnection from modern society, and reduced your hydrocarbon foot-print to 0, millions more won't... guaranteed.

And that’s the thing about Jevons theory from the macro view is – it doesn’t matter.

Either people continue using oil regardless of what else they need to give up or they learn to conserve and allow someone else to use up their share. Zero sum game – it all gets used.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'S')o at the end of the day, all you have accomplished is lowering the relative price-point for energy, virtually financing continued hydrocarbon consumption by the masses.

That of course is where we disagree or at least our focus diverges – In the macro view the oil is still gone and perhaps conservation even hastened its end, but it was bound to be gone in any event. But in the micro view our Zen master doesn’t give a rip.

Callous perhaps, but doesn’t it seem more attractive to be the one levitating over your potato patch in an organic Nirvana than standing with a dry nozzle in your hand wondering what happened?

I ain’t a master at anything and I’d be hurting along with everyone else if the Straits of Hormuz were blockaded tomorrow – just not as bad as I would have been 2 years ago. DOOMMMMMmmmm…
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby clueless » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 12:17:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') dunno if VM is trolling or not clueless – I’ve ranted along much the same PO-Computer-Fantasy-Game line myself!

Thanks for comin over POPS - I just wanted your fatherly input, Haven't ran into you in some time. I actually agree with VM, He seems like a perceptive type of guy !!!
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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby Aaron » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 13:09:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..but it was bound to be gone in any event. But in the micro view our Zen master doesn’t give a rip. Callous perhaps, but doesn’t it seem more attractive to be the one levitating over your potato patch in an organic Nirvana than standing with a dry nozzle in your hand wondering what happened?

True... but... :) How big do you think we should grow our Dependant infrastructure?

My point was that it's not the gas lines, or expensive commuting that is worrisome... or even contemplating a powered down lifestyle.

It's the desperation of others faced with this power-down scenario I fear. A bunch of whom appear to be functionally insane & possess the means to inflict terrible suffering. No aglets available? No problemo with me. But I'm all but certain not everyone will feel that way. There are those who will fight for their aglets... & that's all it really takes isn't it? Remember the Bismark?
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Unread postby Pops » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 14:01:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'H')ow big do you think we should grow our Dependant infrastructure?

Buddy I’m with you, but my point is that Jevon says no matter what I do the resource will be used up, if I use a little less someone else will use a little more. So there is nothing I can do to influence our infrastructure - but I can change my infrastructure. Conservation in this case is not for altruistic preservation of the resource for all of humanity but for self(ish)-defense.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'T')here are those who will fight for their aglets.

My son-in-law, the father of two of my grandkids, is leaving next month to play in the sand in a country coincidentally ‘floating on a sea of oil’. Oh, they will fight, no question, and Jevon assures me there is nothing I can do about it.

Your eyes caught mine, and at a glance
You let me know that this was my chance
But you came here with my best friend Jim
And here I am, tryin' to steal you away from him

Oh, but if I don't do it, you know somebody else will
If I don't do it, you know somebody else will
If I don't do it, you know somebody else will
If I don't do it, you know somebody else will ~Dr. John
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby TorrKing » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 15:22:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'I') like this guy.... :-D BTW: Please tell me where you can go to live with a sack of potatoes and a fishing pole for months... That's where I want to live.

I don't know exactly where he is talking about, but you can do just that in most of Scandinavia. If you have paid a small fishing fee (where I come from about $50 a year) you can fish in a very big area full of fish. My guess is that you would run out of potatoes pretty fast though. :-D
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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby Jack » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 15:41:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', 'S')cary thought, indeed, but I don't see it coming to this. Nobody will want to be the first to unleash the genie, because everyone on this planet knows that it will only end one way, with all involved parties no longer existing.

Really? Let us reflect.

1) Suppose that world grain stocks continue to dwindle and we have two crop failures. Hunger is rampant around the world. Hungry people can be volatile and difficult for governments to control.
North Korea is presently playing about with nuclear weapons in order to get various forms of aid. What happens if China is hungry? Will the government turn to internal oppression, or will they engage in nuclear blackmail to feed their people? What will India do? What will the response be?

2) Suppose that Iran produces a viable nuclear warhead, with delivery system. Suppose they're not kidding about Isreal, and they nuke Jerusalem and a couple other spots. Israel responds. China and the U.S. are drawn in. Who blinks?

3) Suppose that world grain stocks continue to dwindle, and some country somewhere decides to hold back more water. Presently, countries have dams on major rivers, and they are holding back water that is needed for irrigation downstream. I seem to recall Kashmir, between India and Pakistan is one such area - there are others, in Iran, Turkey, Isreal/Jordan. Will a nuclear capable country accept another nation's decision to block water?

4) Suppose China decides to become the one superpower. They launch a 10 megaton device and detonate it 50 miles above Kansas. The resulting EMP fries most of the electronic infrastucture in the U.S. They inform the U.S. that if any cities are evacuated, or if any counterstrike is made, they will target U.S. population centers. So if the U.S. launches against China, 60 million U.S. casualties occur. Perhaps 200,000,000 Chinese die. Who wins?

5) Iran continues to develop nuclear weapons. The U.S. launches a limited nuclear strike to disrupt the program. China offers to protect Iran, and the Iranians accept. The Chinese army starts deploying into Iran. What does the U.S. do?

6) Peak Oil occurs. China begins to unravel. The Chinese government informs the world that if it does not get a greater share of oil, it will launch cobalt bombs against the Saudi oil fields. What does the rest of the world do?

Yes, I think there will be ample opportunity for nuclear war. But the good news is....FEMA will be in charge of moving refugees around. They can seize anything they want. Considering how well they handled Katrina, what happens if they must deal with a problem 600 times worse? Y'all have a nice day, now, y'hear? 8)
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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby ubercynicmeister » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 22:36:06

Hi Aaron...this is the only bit of your very well reasoned post I could disagree with:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'O')ver the past 2000 years or so, we have become masterful at obscuring the mechanism from the public, and presenting only the outcome.

Aaron...when was the Public Relations Industry invented? 2,000 years ago? NOPE, it was invented by one Edward Bernays, in (about) 1920, who used the then-very-new ideas of Fraudian Psychology (spelling intentional) to begin a program of the greatest mass-delusion the world had ever seen. The ideas you're (correctly) objecting to are less than 100 years old!

Sure, Machiavelli wanted what Edward Bernays wanted: mass delusion so the corrupt psychopaths could get on with being corrupt, but he didn't get very far, though. The entire Renaiisance was more about a blatant power-grab by the emerging elite that it was about any "re-birth of learning" (which actually started in the 1100's ).

Go back further: that Manfesto of both Political Correctness, and Communism, Plato's Republic (have a read of THAT if you want your eyes opened ) certainly encouraged the ruling elite (the Philosopher Kings) to lie their heads off to the masses about, well, everything. But when do we see the large-scale application of such to the world? 1917 was the Communist revolution, Aaron. Communism was the first application of Plato's ideals to the "real" world, though it produced a world that was really quite surreal. And all of Political Correctness and Communism and Communism's more staid older brother, Capitalism, depends upon stable energy sources & stable energy prices.

No, Aaron, and I'm surprised that someone was well educated about the effects of Cheap Energy (and it's removal) got fooled by THAT one.
.
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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby clueless » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 22:40:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Torjus', 'I') don't know exactly where he is talking about, but you can do just that in most of Scandinavia. If you have paid a small fishing fee (where I come from about $50 a year) you can fish in a very big area full of fish. My guess is that you would run out of potatoes pretty fast though. :-D

Hey Trojus, thanks for the tip ! That raises a good question though. Can we get thrown in jail for attempting to live off the land here in the U.S. ?

In the 70's we used to shoot deer out of season becasue funds were low and we needed the meat. There is a whole bunch of fat geese across the street, I wonder if I was starving if I would get thrown in jail if I took one ???[smilie=eusa_naughty.gif]
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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby Zardoz » Sun 18 Jun 2006, 03:36:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', '.')..I don't see it coming to this...
Really? Let us reflect...

The scenarios you laid out will never happen. Only one thing matters: Nuclear weapons threaten the lives of the so-called "leaders" of nations, therefore, they will never be used.

Presidents, Prime Ministers, Kings, Grand Ayatollahs, Secretaries of State, and Secretaries of Defense are safe and sound when conventional weapons are used, so that's all they'll allow. Nukes threaten them personally, so nuclear exchanges are out of the question. It's that simple.
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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby SoothSayer » Sun 18 Jun 2006, 07:14:09

Nuclear weapons threaten the lives of the so-called "leaders" of nations, therefore, they will never be used.
That might apply to strategic (i.e. large) nuclear weapons. However tiny nuclear weapons can have yields as low as 5k tonnes TNT equivalent.

I can imagine these being used against point targets ... especially just after a major terrorist attck.
Technology will save us!
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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 18 Jun 2006, 07:36:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')like this guy. BTW: Please tell me where you can go to live with a sack of potatoes and a fishing pole for months. That's where I want to live.
I don't know exactly where he is talking about, but you can do just that in most of Scandinavia. If you have paid a small fishing fee (where I come from about $50 a year) you can fish in a very big area full of fish. My guess is that you would run out of potatoes pretty fast though.

Funny, just did a little side job for a neighbor, found out he's a Finlander that grew up in Ely, MN during the 50's and 60's (my era). Yes, even then you had an unbelievable amount of freedom. My Dad was not lying. Ely, MN was like the Wild West at the turn of the century.
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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 18 Jun 2006, 07:39:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')uppose that Iran produces a viable nuclear warhead, with delivery system. Suppose they're not kidding about Isreal, and they nuke Jerusalem and a couple other spots. Israel responds. China and the U.S. are drawn in. Who blinks?


My question is; why do we always support the Jews?
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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby Aaron » Sun 18 Jun 2006, 07:44:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')aron...when was the Public Relations Industry invented? 2,000 years ago? NOPE, it was invented by one Edward Bernays, in (about) 1920, who used the then-very-new ideas of Fraudian Psychology (spelling intentional) to begin a program of the greatest mass-delusion the world had ever seen. The ideas you're (correctly) objecting to are less than 100 years old!

Sounds reasonable. But your own post points out that the idea is as old as Plato, the implementation came later.

I'd say it started early, perhaps as early as Plato.... & mankind became progressively better at it. Particularly the last 100 years... & especially the last 25.
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby Jack » Sun 18 Jun 2006, 07:55:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', 'T')he scenarios you laid out will never happen. Only one thing matters: Nuclear weapons threaten the lives of the so-called "leaders" of nations, therefore, they will never be used.

Maybe. Keep in mind that wars sometimes become irrational. And the leaders you refer to are in hidden command bunkers that could take a near-direct hit and survive.
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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby Zardoz » Sun 18 Jun 2006, 10:53:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '.')..the idea is as old as Plato...the implementation came later...mankind became progressively better at it...Particularly the last 100 years...especially the last 25.

And it's been brought to the level of a true science during the last 10 years:

Faux News Channel

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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby Aaron » Sun 18 Jun 2006, 11:37:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..wars sometimes become irrational


Nominated for oxymoron of the year.
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: I’m sick of all you peak oil hypocrites

Unread postby ubercynicmeister » Sun 18 Jun 2006, 20:15:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')aron...when was the Public Relations Industry invented? 2,000 years ago? NOPE, it was invented by one Edward Bernays, in (about) 1920, who used the then-very-new ideas of Fraudian Psychology (spelling intentional) to begin a program of the greatest mass-delusion the world had ever seen. The ideas you're (correctly) objecting to are less than 100 years old!
Sounds reasonable... But your own post points out that the idea is as old as Plato... the implementation came later. I'd say it started early, perhaps as early as Plato.... & mankind became progressively better at it.

Truer to say: the philosophy behind it is as old as humanity, no matter how you believe humanity got here (i'm leaning more and more towards the idea that the Yuppies, for example, are actually a platoon of extraterrestrials who have been put here to turn most of humanity into a source of cheap protein). That idea is that of telling lies to gain advantage.

The philosophy came next, as espoused by Plato. But the formalised ideas and - above all, the respectability - came only 100 years ago. Plato's ideas were not well liked at the time, and that's one of the reasons that those in the Middle Ages liked Aristotle, instead. The whole "paradigm" of society changed in the early 20th Century: liars became respectable (such as Sigmund Fraud, who cured people of mental illnesses they did not have) and those who tried to tell the truth got hammered. As Aristotle noted: a large change in the customs of Society goes largely unnoticed.

This is why the propagandists had - and have - such an easy time. But prior to those events, under 100 years ago, lies - and liars - were not respectable. The crooks had to hide their criminality, not as they do today: boast incessantly about it.

I leave you to supply relevant examples of this.I'm sure the field of Politics will provide a burgeoning havest of liars, both boastful and quiet.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')articularly the last 100 years... & especially the last 25.
.
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*Get up early;

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