[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AmericanEmpire', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'w')e are all trapped in somebody's business model.

[paoniapbud]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', '
')
So before you get on yourself-righteous high-horse and pack your bags full of nostalgic notions about how better everything was just remember who got us here and that what they thought and did created this future.

[Jack]

That's right vision-master, we all lead a wonderful abundant life. We're making money hand over fist with our investments.

And when peak oil hits, we'll let people work for a sleeping spot in a shed and just enough food to stay alive and productive. Meanwhile, we'll look out over our land in smug pleasure. The toil of our new serfs will assure that we continue to enjoy an energy rich existence.

Isn't life grand?

[clueless]

I have a question - I am fascinated with the concept of "Trolls" and "Trolling Activites" in relation to discussion forums...

Is Vision-Master a "Troll" or does his post fall into the category of a "Trolling Activity" ?

[clueless]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdumars', 'P')lease don't feed the trolls.

[vision-master]

Anytime someone adds a little twist to get the troops thinking the masses come out and start name-calling the thread man “trolling”. Just trying to enlighten everyone how ill prepared we, as a society really is if the bottom falls out. Sure, the minority could do OK without the grid. But personally, I really like all the comforts that cheap oil brings to my life.

As Ten Years After says. "Watch out you winners, it's the same for everyone".

[clueless]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'A')nytime someone adds a little twist to get the troops thinking the masses come out and start name-calling the thread man “trolling”. Just trying to enlighten everyone how ill prepared we, as a society really is if the bottom falls out. Sure, the minority could do OK without the grid. But personally, I really like all the comforts that cheap oil brings to my life.

As Ten Years After says. "Watch out you winners, it's the same for everyone".

[Ludi]

But it's not "a little twist" it's the same old junk we've been dealing with for months (or years).

The main point a lot of us keep trying to make, which makes some of us doomers, is that we as a society, as well as individuals, are almost completely unprepared for peak oil. Even those few of us who are TRYING to get our acts together know that times will be hard for us too (except Jack, he'll be fine).

Was there some original observation you wanted to make?

[vision-master]

Some of them Geezers (WWII) were real survivalists. My dad's best friend was a lumberjack during the time when they hauled out timber by horse. Matter of fact, dad talked about building houses with ONLY hand tools. He would be 96 if alive these days. I'm pretty wimpy by those standards. Back in their day, they could make or fix about anything themselves. I admire them old timers.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut it's not "a little twist" it's the same old junk we've been dealing with for months (or years).
The main point a lot of us keep trying to make, which makes some of us doomers, is that we as a society, as well as individuals, are almost completely unprepared for peak oil. Even those few of us who are TRYING to get our acts together know that times will be hard for us too (except Jack, he'll be fine). Was there some original observation you wanted to make?

[Ludi]

Did they forge their own tools? Dig their own ore? Smelt it?
Of course not. They were as dependent on their society as we are. No man is an island, to borrow a trite phrase.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'N')ope, just figuring out where everyone is coming from.

[Lighthouse]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'T')hat's right vision-master, we all lead a wonderful abundant life. We're making money hand over fist with our investments.
And when peak oil hits, we'll let people work for a sleeping spot in a shed and just enough food to stay alive and productive. Meanwhile, we'll look out over our land in smug pleasure. The toil of our new serfs will assure that we continue to enjoy an energy rich existence. Isn't life grand?

[Atlantean_Relic]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'N')ope, just figuring out where everyone is coming from.

[pigleg]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'N')ope, just figuring out where everyone is coming from.

[small_steps]

Time to inject some Aristotle? He who is unable to live in society, or who has no need because he is sufficient for himself, must be either a beast or a god; he is no part of a state. -- Aristotle, Politics

As much as wanting to cut the strings that we are tied to the rest of society, it is not part of human nature. We may feel a deep desire to flee a sinking ship, but cannot. Not sure were to go beyond what I've written, but thought it might be thought provoking.

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AmericanEmpire', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'w')e are all trapped in somebody's business model.

[vision-master]

This is the Physiology corner, yes.

[Aaron]

This thread speaks to a fundamental aspect of PO IMO.

It is frustrating to consider that even the peak-informed by and large don't walk the walk, anymore than the ignorant masses. This observation masks the reality of our situation however. Over the past 2000 years or so, we have become masterful at obscuring the mechanism from the public, and presenting only the outcome.

Meat comes in little cellophane packages...
Veggies appear in neat rows on a shelf...
Cars... from the car dealer of course...
And so forth.

The underpinnings for our industrial/information society are all but transparent to the vast majority. And all of them are energy-price sensitive. Obviously... We think in the simplest terms, with the most convenient definitions. Little or no thought is given to the process itself... only the outcome is noted.

For example, buy a hybrid car... we see the higher fuel efficiency on the sticker, but the truly heroic amounts of hydrocarbon energy it takes to sustain a growing industrial presence capable of producing such a vehicle, goes unnoticed.

Never occur to us, that around half of the hydrocarbons that car will consume by existing, had already been burned before you ever saw it.

Now multiply this idea across the spectrum of stuff out there, and you'll get the implication. Even the guy, who makes the petrol from oil had his morning coffee in a styrene cup... made from oil. Right down to the aglets on yer shoelaces... (thnx Pops)...

If that was not bad enough... Even if you achieved zen-like disconnection from modern society, and reduced your hydrocarbon foot-print to 0, millions more won't... guaranteed.

So at the end of the day, all you have accomplished is lowering the relative price-point for energy, virtually financing continued hydrocarbon consumption by the masses. If you don't burn it, I promise you someone will. As weird as it sounds, ethical energy conservation is a terrible thing.

Energy prices, (especially oil), should be many times more expensive than it is today... (& I believe that if OPEC's fake reserve estimates were exposed it would be)

Short of military intervention, it's the only way to get a handle on consumption. (As we see in some European countries today with their massive fuel taxes) Cost vs utility is the only true governor on human behavior.

Finally, although an energy impoverished world might suck from our point of view, it's not the real problem. Mankind has done that many times in our past with measured success.

It's our penchant as a species for fighting that's the real issue. We have a storied history of fighting... as individuals, groups and nations... we fight today. The problem is, that we have become extraordinarily efficient at it.

I don't really fear a horse & buggy society... my Great Grandfather did it. I fear the planet of the ape's scenario... desperate people with nuclear weapons is an anathema. Joe help us...