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Humans evolving into several species?

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Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby TorrKing » Tue 13 Jun 2006, 12:10:46

As many here, I believe humanity is about to enter a major bottleneck populationwise. We are currently spread out over the entire globe, some populations may die entirely out, others may be seriously decimated.

There are several points that in my opionion is likely to cause humans to evolve into several species:

- There will be lots of isolated (or relatively isolated) populations of humans.
- Who knows what criterias will be favored for individuals to survive. The criterias may be different on every location, encouraging division from the "homo sapiens sapiens" branch.
- When such massive numbers of people die, there is likely to be great tendencies of natural selection. The process may therefore go much faster than we consider possible today.
- In modern societies, nearly every human is saved by the help of modern medicine. Even those normally considered unfit to live under "normal" circumstances. If a such a genetic oddity show to be gainly and improving survival rates, that trait may soon be pretty much dominant in that local population, given that the population is small and isolated.

Today everything points in the other direction, with lots of exchange of genes, but that may soon change.

Edit: Actually, today's widespread exchange of genes between populations may add to the probability of new species emerging as soon as the limiting factors kick in. A broad genetic pool gives natural selection a wider spectre to choose from and will allow for a quicker establishment of a new "equilibrium specie".

I have thought quite a lot about this and I find the possibility exciting. Our society and specie is very homogenous and I see a future (sadly it will not be to see for me :( ) where the world will be much more mysterious and diverse.

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Re: Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby Serendipity » Tue 13 Jun 2006, 12:33:36

If you consider populations from Eurasia and America, they have been separated for thousands of year and they still belong to the same species.

If you believe that the crash will be so hard that different surviving communities will be separated for longer than that, you are probably one of the worst doomer on the board.
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Re: Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby TorrKing » Tue 13 Jun 2006, 12:50:07

First of all: Human populations now exists in places where they simply can't get out. (Deforestated islands etc..)

One of the main reasons why the human specie has stayed as one specie this long is because there has been little natural selection (relatively few individuals has been selected out). But since the population now is very high and maybe as much as 3/4s will die, that is selection on a much grander scale. Such a relatively rapid process (100 - 200 years) could create far more drastic results.

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Re: Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby lotrfan55345 » Tue 13 Jun 2006, 13:35:01

Even "major" genetic changes of hundreds of thousands of years (ie the Pygmy peoples of isolated islands in SE Asia) that make people just grow to be 3 feet tall with a 15% reduced cranial capacity, they are still part of the same species even with relatively small population and high rates of natural selection in a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. They have one of the purest samples of mitochondrial DNA meaning all traces of "other" races/peoples have all meen wiped out in their gene pool. They still are not a different species. Maybe in 3 million years, but not in 100-200!
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Re: Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby TorrKing » Tue 13 Jun 2006, 13:45:54

I perhaps didn't make it clear that I don't think a new specie can evolve in 100-200 years, but that is the time I think will be the duration of the dieoff.

But it may go much faster than 3 million years if the conditions are favourable.

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Re: Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby MacG » Tue 13 Jun 2006, 15:39:47

It has already happened. Norwegians can survive on "lutefisk" and composted vegetables. That's pretty unique. Like cyanobacteria or such. The next evolutionary step we are all waiting for is for ALL of them to have one leg which is longer than the other - so they can go "pa tur" in the mountains whitout tumbling dow the hillside. Only drawback is that they will have to go either distance backwards...
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Re: Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby Schweinshaxe » Tue 13 Jun 2006, 18:24:30

Yup, there will be the Swedes and the rest.

Ice Hockey will be the new world religion. The Americans will have smelly feet.
Was soll das?
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Re: Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby 0mar » Wed 14 Jun 2006, 02:23:28

To be considered different species, two populations can not create fertile offspring, if they can produce offspring at all. For this to occur in humans, we need at least 1 million years of completely isolated populations. Otherwise it just won't happen.

Sub-sahara Africa and Northern Europe probably haven't mixed genes for 50,000 years prior to modern day (post 1700s). And yet, they still produce normal children. 100-200 years is nothing.
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Re: Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby pea-jay » Wed 14 Jun 2006, 03:50:11

No way this will happen fast on its own. Sped up evolution can only occur with some monkeying around (sorry about the evolutionary pun) with the genetic code. Why wait a few million years for natural and random errors to differentiate a species, when biotech can do it in the course of an afternoon. Of course most of that is now just theoretical or labratorial in nature. But given enough time and tech progress, humans probably would be changed and for the dramatic.

Joel Garreau wrote a book about that called Radical Evolution and presented a few scenarios on the future of man kind.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/cgi-bin/apf ... 0385509650

Only if technical progress can continue at its current pace will we ever be able to witness evolutionary trends as they occur.
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Re: Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby Battle_Scarred_Galactico » Wed 14 Jun 2006, 10:10:26

With the time scales involved, I don't think this short lived boom in population will have any effect on evolution, unless theres' an extinction.
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Re: Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby Kylon » Wed 14 Jun 2006, 12:20:16

I would like to do some genetic alterations to myself, and eventually become a different species.

I would like to enlarge the anterior cingulate(what I would consider the single most important part of the brain for cognitive performance) at least 10 fold, the right medial prefrontal cortex enlarged(delayed gratification center), the frontal frontal lobes enlarged, weirneckes area(meaning, primary neuroregulator of the prefrontal cortex) enlarged, the parietal association cortex(alot of our creativity) enlarged.

I would want to massive increase the growth of the hippocampus, olfactory bulb, and amygdala, meanwhile eliminating NOGO(nogo is a myelin inhibitory factor, which induces proliferation within those three brain regions, while inhibiting regeneration within the rest of the brain and the spinal cord. Eliminating of NOGO would lead to fantastic neural regenerative abilities, and the ability to learn skills or languages at an extremely fast rate).

I would want the body to produce cellulase, so I, and my descendants would be able to consume all non-toxic foliage. Limitless food supply.

I would like to modify the ASPM gene, the main gene that regulates the size of the cerebral cortex, make that MUCH, MUCH, larger.

I would want my body to produce telomerase in all cells, while simulataneously eliminating telomerase inhibiting molecules. Ontop of this, I would like my body to have a SUPER, SUPER strong immune system, which was geared up to kill cancer. I already have this mapped out in my brain how the mechanics of this would work. The immune system would also be hyper reactive, so even a slight variation in healthy cell behavior would lead to it being attacked.

The super strong, super reactive immune system would take care of the increased possibility for cancer. Essentially, even though the cancer cells would be in greater numbers, the strength of my white blood cells(thanks to a super long telomere strand) would be nearly as great as that of the cancer.

I would want my body to manufacture more antioxidants, and other vital nutrients in larger numbers.

I would want increased regeneration. I would want my body to heal super, super fast, and grow very, very easily.

Ontop of that, I would want to modify the genes so that they are like the genes modified in the limb regenerating mice(only 4 or 5 genes, I believe). So that I could lose a finger, or my descendants could lose a finger, and it could grow back.

I would want the ability to in a sense, "lay a womb", filled with eggs. I would want both male and female to have this ability. The womb like thing would grow, then come out of the host, where it would feed ravenously on food that you would feed it from it's surrounding environment.

Once the womb had fully grown, and was healthy, you'd lay eggs, or you'd fertilize eggs. The eggs would then grow to a sufficient size, and after words, the infant would be born. This would eliminate painful childbirth for the mother/father.

Besides acting as a womb, the hive, would produce nutrients, and have more of it's functions dedicated towards that. It would have an extremely strong immune system(depending on it's level of growth), it would nurse infants. It would also burrow/send roots into the ground, and look for water.

I was also thinking, it would be nice if it could/would, in a sense send off shooters, to produce plant like life, and would absorb sunlight, and(I have multiple ideas on how to convert ambient thermal energy from the air, but one of them involves a chemical process), it, if that process works, could use that process to produce food/energy/resources for the womb/hive.


I was thinking that this thing could in a sense, expand into a dwelling.

So we'de have a living organic dwelling, that would also grow nutrients.

I was thinking my descendants would have a type of scale armor that their exteriors would have, and ontop of that extremely good claws(but retaining fingers and opposable thumbs, for the work of whatever they want to do). This would eradicate the need for clothing.

Since the male and female would no longer need to merge, but instead would merge with the womb, then the scales wouldn't get in the way of procreation(to my descendants this would be just as fun, if not more so, than sexual intercourse, because this would be their form of sexual intercourse).

If my idea for conversion of ambient thermal energy through chemical means works, then the scales along with being extremely strong, and good insulation, would be thermal converters, providing power/energy resources, to the descendant.


As long as people like me exist, EVOLUTION WILL MOVE FORWARD!
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Re: Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby gigacannon » Wed 14 Jun 2006, 14:09:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('0mar', 'T')o be considered different species, two populations can not create fertile offspring, if they can produce offspring at all. For this to occur in humans, we need at least 1 million years of completely isolated populations. Otherwise it just won't happen.

Sub-sahara Africa and Northern Europe probably haven't mixed genes for 50,000 years prior to modern day (post 1700s). And yet, they still produce normal children. 100-200 years is nothing.


Don't forget, the 'two can't produce fertile offspring' thing is just a guide. Animals typically classifed as belonging to seperate species can occasionally (or commonly) interbreed to produce fertile offspring, even when the result is normal a sterile animal. For example, some mules can sire offspring.

Additionally, the rule only applies to sexual organisms; many organisms reproduce asexually.

Humans do vary quite a bit, like dogs, within our own species. Consider a seven stone filipino woman compared with a twenty stone, six foot six inch dude from Germany. The difference in scale between the two is huge; yet they are both adults of the same species.
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Re: Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby lotrfan55345 » Wed 14 Jun 2006, 14:30:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gigacannon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('0mar', 'T')o be considered different species, two populations can not create fertile offspring, if they can produce offspring at all. For this to occur in humans, we need at least 1 million years of completely isolated populations. Otherwise it just won't happen.

Sub-sahara Africa and Northern Europe probably haven't mixed genes for 50,000 years prior to modern day (post 1700s). And yet, they still produce normal children. 100-200 years is nothing.


Don't forget, the 'two can't produce fertile offspring' thing is just a guide. Animals typically classifed as belonging to seperate species can occasionally (or commonly) interbreed to produce fertile offspring, even when the result is normal a sterile animal. For example, some mules can sire offspring.

Additionally, the rule only applies to sexual organisms; many organisms reproduce asexually.

Humans do vary quite a bit, like dogs, within our own species. Consider a seven stone filipino woman compared with a twenty stone, six foot six inch dude from Germany. The difference in scale between the two is huge; yet they are both adults of the same species.


^^
Well obviously the resulting baby bewteen the two wouldn't be sterile
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Re: Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby SoothSayer » Wed 14 Jun 2006, 17:13:21

I perhaps didn't make it clear that I don't think a new specie can evolve in 100-200 years

Not convinced. I think that they are ALREADY amongst us.

Examples:

1. My neigbours.

2. The denizens of my local inner city

3. All politicians
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Re: Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby Madpaddy » Wed 14 Jun 2006, 18:18:57

Torjus,

You watch too much Lord of the Rings. It would be super if we all evolved into dwarves, elves etc. I dream of leading bands of Halladrim and orcs on a rampage through much of the UK and ireland. I got to watch out for those Welsh bowmen though.
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Re: Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby Rambo » Wed 14 Jun 2006, 19:56:51

It's already started I took this picture of a local in the east of France.



Image



I am glad that there are no silly subjects posted on this peak oil board :roll:
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Re: Humans evolving into several species?

Unread postby TorrKing » Thu 15 Jun 2006, 12:00:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Madpaddy', 'T')orjus,

You watch too much Lord of the Rings. It would be super if we all evolved into dwarves, elves etc. I dream of leading bands of Halladrim and orcs on a rampage through much of the UK and ireland. I got to watch out for those Welsh bowmen though.


It has nothing to do with that at all. Don't like Lord of the Rings much for that matter. There used to be several species of humanoids living on this planet. I am just saying that this happen again, giving the right conditions and time.

The large gene pool thing is not bullshit. Because of a much higher number of individuals (and a shorter lifespan) insects can evolve very fast. We currently have a greater gene pool than ever, a triggering factor like a die-off could give branches of humanity a different selection and move them away from the rest.

By the way, there are humans today which have trouble reproducing with eachother because of genetical differences. Rhesus minus women can normally not have children with men having rhesus plus.

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