[Rambo]

[web]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5062632.stm[/web]

[Doly]

Yes, definitely one of the symptoms.

I'm still waiting for General Motors to disappear completely. I'm expecting it to happen fairly soon, they are in deep financial trouble.

[Grifter]

Don't be silly, its just the 'Deteriorating product range'

[dhfenton]

The demise of Ford started 30 years ago. At that time they failed to produce quality compact cars that could compete with the Japanese. Who could forget such notable lines as the Pinto, the Mercury Capri, the crappy old mustang II's, and many other pieces of crap that usually were ready for the scrap heap in a few short years? They were taken by surprise, oddly enough right about the time US oil production peaked.

Ford has been the king of gigantic SUVs, and now that market is drying up fast. They were killed by their own ignorance, lack of governmental oversight, and the moronic mentality of the public in general. It's the public that demanded all the SUVs, Ford was merely their pusher.

My favorite baby boomer quote " I need an SUV, or minivan, because I have two kids now." Did your parents have a minivan? You want an SUV because it gives you the appearance of wealth. And as for the minivan, who to hell knows why anyone would drive one of them?

[okek]

dhfenton our parents didn't have seatbelt/carseat/booster seat laws. You could stuff 4 kids in the back seat and another 2 or 3 in the back of the station wagon and not get ticketed. Kids could ride in the front seat before airbag laws.

We've been legislated into these vehicles. Sure, 2 kids are doable in a sedan but forget it if you want to bring their friends along too.

[JustinFrankl]

Is it really the fault of the stupid public? Your analogy of a "pusher" is apt, they do push their products on people. When was the last time someone saw a bicycle commercial? It's not just the car companies, it's also the media. It's industry. It's government.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('V for Vendetta', 'W')ho's to blame? Well certainly there are those who are more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable. But again, truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War. Terror. Disease. There were a myriad of problems that conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you ...

[DoctorDoom]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dhfenton', 'A')nd as for the minivan, who the hell knows why anyone would drive one of them?

[jato]

I have 3 Fords:

Ranger
Explorer
Expedition

[dhfenton]

So now the minivan (AKA the Goober-mobile) is an American necessity? You guys can't be serious. Go stand beside the road and tell me how often you see a minivan or SUV drive by with more than the driver in it. Not often. More than 2, even less. 3,4 or 5 almost never. 6, forget about it. The average sedan can easily hold a driver and 4 kids. So the Minivan theory is bull unless you're carting around 5 or more kids.

For even more fun, watch the pick-ups and see how often you get more than the driver. Not very damned often.

And it isn't much better for sedans either; but at least they get better MPG.

The point is that these vehicles became a "necessity" because ABC marketing told you they were a necessity. Just like the 4 wheel drive mentality. The overwhelming majority of these vehicles are never driven off-road. It just amazes me the amount of cash that people lay out for these things, and they have absolutely no need for the features they're paying extra for. And the operating cost is so much higher, why pay that when you don't need it?

I know one guy who traded in a perfectly good minivan for a new one with two doors in the back simply because they had a second child. If he had a sedan in the first place, it would have already had that door just waiting for number 2. Maybe if the soccer moms made the morbidly obease little rugrats walk once in a while they'd find they didn't need the minivan at all.

My rule of thumb for the day: " if you're driving down the road behind a long line of slow moving cars, there's an excellent chance that the first vehicle in line is a beat-up old minivan, or a vehicle with a handicapped parking tag hanging from the mirror, or both" Check it out.

[SoothSayer]

For one thing they don't have to have useless 4WD and big gnarly tires.


I've just bought a diesel 7 seater Jap minivan WITH 4WD and chunky tires ESPECIALLY for PO!

Japanese import, VERY, VERY cheap.

It will be our livestock / equipment / feed / family transporter with a bit of off-road capability to get onto agricultural land ... or to skirt road blocks and traffic jams!

Could be useful.

[okek]

dhfenton, you cannot legally put 4 kids under age 16 in the back seat of most sedans, at least not in NY.

http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/dmvfaqs.htm#car%20seat

How much experience do you have with carseats? They are big, bulky and legally mandated. As I said, we have been legislated to drive these monstrosities.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jato', 'I') have 3 Fords:

Ranger
Explorer
Expedition

[JoeW]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jato', 'I') have 3 Fords:

Ranger
Explorer
Expedition

[WisJim]

We raised 3 sons and drove, at various times, VW Rabbits or Jettas, or earlier had VW beetles (original air cooled rear engine kind). Two car seats worked in the back seat of the Beetles, Rabbits or Jetta. When we needed to haul more people we had a 7 passenger 1969 VW van that got 24 to 28 mpg.

Why would anyone have more than 1 or 2 kids anyway? Self-indulgence or just ignorance of what causes them? <G>

[JoeW]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('okek', 'd')hfenton, you cannot legally put 4 kids under age 16 in the back seat of most sedans, at least not in NY.

http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/dmvfaqs.htm#car%20seat

How much experience do you have with carseats? They are big, bulky and legally mandated. As I said, we have been legislated to drive these monstrosities.

[jato]

How much do you spend on gasoline in an average month?

$200 - 400 it varies.

[okek]

WisJim, those old vw vans were great! I learned to drive in one and can drive anything as a result.

Why would anyone have more than 1 or 2 kids? You had 3, you tell me!

JoeW, yes 2 can fit just fine but I was responding to someone who said 4 will fit in the average sedan. Not in many states because of carseat laws/front airbags.

[dhfenton]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('okek', 'd')hfenton, you cannot legally put 4 kids under age 16 in the back seat of most sedans, at least not in NY.

http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/dmvfaqs.htm#car%20seat

How much experience do you have with carseats? They are big, bulky and legally mandated. As I said, we have been legislated to drive these monstrosities.