[mekrob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', 'B')lame to go around? I don't think that's his point. It seemed more like older generations didn't need these common appliances and thus they were better off. Life was much simpler.

[strider3700]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', ' ')But as the decline of oil really kicks in, we will have to start dealing with food costs skyrocketing.

[dbarberic]

I fundamentally believe that the economic woes of the middle class sited in this thread are driven by the root cause of monetary inflation in combination with standard government statistics that do no accurately reflect true economic conditions.

Inflation itself is not necessary bad, if your wages keep pace at the same level. However, going back to the mid-50’s and 60’s the CPI has been manipulated through different techniques with the end result of reporting a statistic that is materially lower than the real world (please see the following link for more detail: http://www.gillespieresearch.com/cgi-bin/bgn/).

CPI heavily impacts wage/salary adjustments and adjustments to government benefits such as Social Security. Consider all the union contracts that have annual raises tied to CPI and corporate annual merit raises that mirror CPI. If you work in corporate American and received the average raise of 3% and true inflation is running at 9%, you actually are walking backwards and lost 6% of your salary’s purchasing power.

The net effect is a real increase in the cost of goods and services through inflation and wages and salaries that keep loosing purchasing power every year as annual increases do not match the real inflation rate. What your salary bought in the 50’s no longer buys the same amount of goods in 2006. This slow process is requiring families to move to a structure of two working parents just to survive.

While consumerism is the root cause quoted by many people, is the US really the much more consumeristic now than in the early 50’s and 60’s? I seem to remember that people loved their big cars with tailfins, avocado green appliances, brand new suburban track houses, B&W televisions, and fashionable clothing.

I believe the slow and insidious process of having real wages not match the true rate of inflation is what is eating the middle and lower classes alive over the past decades.

[SchroedingersCat]

Something I don't see mentioned very often is the fact that most consumer stuff is very inexpensive now compared to the 60's and 70's. TV's, VCR's, household goods -- all of these cost a much smaller percentage of income then they did. China makes this crap for us and sells it cheaply because of the wage differentials.

If a couple is bringing home $40k /year and needs to spend 30k on their nut, that still leaves $10k to spend on discretionary purchases. That's a lot of $35 dvd players and $100 stereos.

[max_power29]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thor', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '
')Think about it. We are better educated, harder working, and have all this great technology and yet the world seems to be falling apart for the American middle class.

[max_power29]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', 'W')ell maybe that's because no one really needs a humanities degree. But engineering, physics, math, computer science, those are paid pretty well. Needed jobs get paid well. Be a translator in Iraq and you'll earn 120 to 150 grand (80k of which is not taxed).

[dbarberic]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SchroedingersCat', 'S')omething I don't see mentioned very often is the fact that most consumer stuff is very inexpensive now compared to the 60's and 70's. TV's, VCR's, household goods -- all of these cost a much smaller percentage of income then they did. China makes this crap for us and sells it cheaply because of the wage differentials.

[SchroedingersCat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dbarberic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SchroedingersCat', 'S')omething I don't see mentioned very often is the fact that most consumer stuff is very inexpensive now compared to the 60's and 70's. TV's, VCR's, household goods -- all of these cost a much smaller percentage of income then they did. China makes this crap for us and sells it cheaply because of the wage differentials.

[Madpaddy]

Shroedingers cat wrote,
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')omething I don't see mentioned very often is the fact that most consumer stuff is very inexpensive now compared to the 60's and 70's. TV's, VCR's, household goods -- all of these cost a much smaller percentage of income then they did. China makes this crap for us and sells it cheaply because of the wage differentials.

[jmorris]

It seems to me that there is a time coming where simplicity of a life is an important value. This is a time when people are not so much interested of how much material wealth they possess but how much happiness in life they have.

True fundamentals of life if you think about it is to have a good family and sufficient amount of friends around. Earlier is was important to have a large network of relatives around that supported each other. In today's busy life it is important to build a career. Relatives are there somewhere and schedule of life defines when there is time for them. But when hard times hit this network is probably the only support there is.

Nowadays series in television tell story about strong individuals who succeed, make wealth and are controlling their own lifes. Maybe there will soon be a time when story about a person living simple life by finding a support of his/hers relativies is a story that many people want to see. It this kind of series would make a big headlines that would tell many stories about the nation.

Ironically someone who is at the edge on time may make a good fortune with this kind of concept. It is just about timing and it seems that that time is coming.

[mekrob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('max_power29', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', 'W')ell maybe that's because no one really needs a humanities degree. But engineering, physics, math, computer science, those are paid pretty well. Needed jobs get paid well. Be a translator in Iraq and you'll earn 120 to 150 grand (80k of which is not taxed).

[greenworm]

I use to work as an engineer/computer scientist making $60,000 a year, however, outsourcing ripped this apart. My company replaced me for 3 Indian workers since they only get paid $20,000. Good luck finding a job, I gave up awhile ago, plus, who really wants to go blind and have carpel tunnel? It is estimated that over 2 million people have been outsourced in the tech sector, I think the middle class has been wiped clean. I took a political philosophy class in college and the professor proposed that we are heading towards a "managerialistic society." We don't produce anything of value just paper (reports,money) and we need managers more than workers. Man, shoulda seen the writing on the wall. All for the better, I dig my new job as it requires no driving , plus, it allows me to take advantage of what I know and that is outsourcing is going to create huge profits (PSPT). Now I create useless paper (stock certificates) with two clicks of a button, a lot less typing than my old job.

[perdition79]

The "Middle Class" (if such a thing even exists these days) is definitely just living beyond their means. Especially with wages being as low as they are. Here in Florida, the definition of "Middle Class" is almost the same as "working poor", and it's sad.

Here in the Tampa area, jobs that pay over $50k a year are a rarity, with most people struggling to make the same $36k a year that I make. That's a damned peasant's wage! My business degree would get me the same amount of money in an office position as I make now, and with a lot less job security -- a couple of my friends have been through three or four jobs in the last few years due to layoffs at their offices.

So rather than do like so many of my old high-school and college friends (and several relatives) -- married, 2 kids, suburban house full of new crap and two new cars, living on credit cards -- I realized the American Dream[sup]®[/sup] has become a living nightmare! I have acknowledged my role as a serf and now live entirely on my checking account. For the first time in my life I have a 6-month cash reserve, everything I have is mine and it feels great.

I think as rapid inflation sets in due to the collapse of the petrodollar, more people will realize that freedom from debt is the real American Dream[sup]®[/sup].

[dooberheim]

Debt is just one of those black hole things that if you get too far in, you never get out. If you can avoid debt (translate, drop your standard of living far enough so you don't need credit, and don't care what anyone thinks), one is SO much better off, and one continues to get better off as one saves.

I haven't paid a penny of interest in 15 years, and minimally before that. One big hit I've taken is for a guy, frugality is poison to women. You guys with wives that share your vision of a simple, low dollar life are incredibly lucky. However, once I got it through my head that a woman couldn't do anything for me that my hands couldn't do just as well, I moved on.

Earlier in US history, we had a generation of people that endured a depression and shortages of a major war. Now most people feel they need a $5 cup of coffee to start the day. I think it's fairly obvious why we're in trouble.

DK

[Dukat_Reloaded]

Consumer Debt is bad, but not all debt is bad. The type of debt that is really bad is the "take out a $10,000 loan for a holiday". If the american debt was invested into productive businesses, the entire US would be totally different today, there would be more produced goods, higher level employment and much greater overall wealth and the US would not have such a bad trade deficet.

The story is, you can loan $50,000 to two people, one person will use the money to start up a business, the other person will use the money to buy a new car and go on a overseas holiday. Honestly which person do you think would be the most capable of paying back the loan? The loans of today are never going to be repaided to the banks, there is just no way consumers are able to become productive enough to pay off the debt, they were given money and they blew it.

[azreal60]

I've seen some good posts in this thread, and some that are ok. The posts I really like are the ones that realize it's not about laying blame. Directly, a person only has themselves to blame for their actions. I want to say that I think taxes have absolutely nothing to do with it. The margin of how much taxes have increased compared to how much every thing else has gone up is like 100 to 1. It's like saying, omg, taxes went up 1 cent, but my gas now costs 100 dollars a tank! That's an almost realistic comparison to how much more money is just being shot on things we don't need compared to how much we are taxed.

The reason taxes seem like such a horrible thing is people now adays are used to "easy payments" Spreading things out over months for things they can't really afford. So then taxes come around and they have to pay it all at once. Madness! LOL When you think about it, your taxes for most people are less than you spend on clothing and movies and things like a TV or something of that nature. If your taxes are more, then likely your making more and it's not a huge hardship. Only if your making a good amount but spending an ungodly amount do taxes become a real burden. Long and the short? Don't over leverage the money you have. Spend only what you need to spend and you won't have to complain about taxes. ( of course, if they go skyhigh for wasteful services, then all bets are off)

[0mar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thor', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '
')Think about it. We are better educated, harder working, and have all this great technology and yet the world seems to be falling apart for the American middle class.

[lowem]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DesertBear2', 'I')n the 50s and 60s, people lived in much smaller houses- maybe 1200sf for the average family. Few people had central AC, granite countertops, or wall-wall carpeting. Today all that is mandatory.

[Revi]

We live in about 1000 Sq. Ft. house in a walkable neighborhood in an aging small industrial town surrounded by farms and forests. I did something I've never done, took a hot air balloon ride this weekend. While floating over the town I live in I thought that it's a nice place, not particularly remarkable, filled with people. People who are both smart and dumb, rich and poor, lazy and hard working, young and old. Just a place. The place we live in. I'm more than half way through life's journey. I don't know what will happen to this place, but it will probably muddle through. At least we're not trapped in megalopolis.

I am very much like a typical middle class person. I started out as a real individual, and have been subsumed into the collective. My dreams are of gasoline fired machines. I have been thinking of getting a convertible lately. I know it's expensive, but I want it, and I'm not getting any younger. If we hit Iran I may never get another chance to live the American Dream. I try to resist these urges, but my culture is very insistent on keeping them in my mind. Commercials tout the vehicle of your dreams. Status is conveyed by them. We live to consume. That's our job, isn't it?

[max_power29]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', 'Y')eah, because dodging bullets while translating Arabic-English in 130 degrees is just like sitting at home watching TV in AC for neither of which you didn't pay. Exactly the same.

But you would agree that the more needed jobs, nursing, techs, engineers, do get paid much more, right? That's essentially what I was saying.