[q0qpg]

I'm new to peak oil, and I've found the discussion threads I've read extremely interesting and informative.

One thing I've noticed in a few of the threads I've read is a lot of "us/them" language or thinking, and I thought I'd ask about it.

There seems to be a dichotomy constructed in many of the conversations I read on this website. To simplify (grossly, and please forgive my ignorance): On one side there seems to be the "peak oilers" -- people who have an excellent grasp of these very complex issues (A Quick Aside: What sort of socio-economic and educational background do you think is required to participate in these kinds of discussions? I wonder if some people are inadvertently excluded from participating in these discussions.) On the other "side", I get a picture of people who are "ignorant" "sellouts": those who have lots of credit card debt, big mortgages, drive SUVs, etc. The list can go on.

This us/them dichotomy seems to pervade a lot of the discourse surounding peak oil, and I find it very disturbing how it echos the neoliberal individualism of the very political, economic, and ideological systems I thougth we were here to critique!

I want to live a more sustainable lifestyle, but I don't want to morally regulate others, either.

I'm not advocating for more individualism (HELL no), and I'm not advocating for ignoring our neighbors and fellow citizens and the damaging lifestyles we in the industrialized world take for granted. I guess I just wanted to somehow ask how community, teaching, and social/environmental accountability can be introduced into our dialogues, as oppsed to, say, comparing my "good" choices to the "sellouts" next door.

It seems as though the us/them language has the potential to create a climate of distrust, superiorty, and incites us to patrol the borders between our own "goodness" and the moral "badness" of "others" (even, ironically, when we're speaking on the behalf of disadvantaged people). How do we shift the discussion to social, as opposed to individual, change, in terms of how we think about our neighbors, friends, strangers, etc.?

I would like to think about how I can make these peak oil issues speak to people in ways that will engage them, as opposed to alienate them. What does peak oil mean to the woman I sit beside on the bus everyday, who is a single mom with three kids and barely gets by working part time at McDonalds? For that matter, how can I be committed to a more sustainable lifestyle and live with the fact that I have a mortgage, student loan debts, and that I occasionally drive my car. I dont want my accountability to turn to judgement and then turn to paralyzing guilt and fear. It doesn't seem like the best way to form fruitful relaitonships.

What kind of system does us/them language allow for? What kind of values allow for and sustain this way of thinking? When I think of the black and white, us/them language, I think of George Bush "you're either with me or against me" finger-pointing mentality. And it disturbs me.

I'm sorry if this thread is completely irrelevant and/or ignorant. This website is a fantastic way to create some dialogue and political change. It felt like an important point to address.

[aldente]

Us,us,us,,,, and them....them, has been previousely evaluated (1974) by Pink Floyd already.

[OilyMon]

I don't in anyway think your post is irrelevant or ignorant I also percieve in many of the posts and responses here, that the author tends to think of themselves and their opinions as superior to those who may not be as informed as they are, or who may not have had opportunities to expose themselves to the kind of information that we all have availalbe to us. (opps!)

Is it in any way constructive to socially stratify "peak oilers" and "non-peak oilers"? It worked for Bush and his administration's desire to invade Iraq. Maybe the same strategy can work for "peak oilers" and their desire to invade to consciousness of the "general population" - whoever they happen to be from your particular point of view. In fact, I'm positive this could be done provided the appropriate leadership and organization and generalizing further - negative social stratification, when applied as an idealogical modulus operandi to a group in opposition to or disagreement with an organization, provides meaning and purpose for the existence of the organization and motivates organizational consistuents - regardless of the organizations ability to prove or disprove foundational ideologies.

[Raxozanne]

As Madonna says:

"Im not sorry... It's human nature"

This us/them thing has been going on for millions of years, ever since the first group of our ape ancestors set off on a raiding party to bet the crap out of 'one of those apes across the valley/stream/whatever'

Maybe I should be a little nicer but when I see someone whose most important problem in life is what nail varnish to wear and has no clue (and no interest whatsoever in learning) about how we got to where we are today (more interested in knowing what Peter Andre is doing this week) I just can't help thinking 'sheeple'. I let all those people who don't have time to contemplate and learn and are too busy working flat out just trying to survive (like the majority of humanity since forever) off the hook though.

[pepper2000]

This is an excellent post, so much so that I will come out of my lurking to respond.

I have two, somewhat contradictary, concerns on the issues that you have written about. In coming to understand the problems that our world faces today, which go far beyond oil depletion, they seem to come down to one thing ultimately. The consumerist culture, which has gotten so far out of control, is the main reason we are headed toward disaster. This problem cuts down to the individual level, which means that those ignorant neighbors we tend to turn out noses at, and others like them, are primarily the ones to blame.

If I did not believe we were facing ecological or economic crises, I would still want to change the consumerist culture as much as I do now. It is very destructive to our communities, and it is also spiritually destructive.

However, I fully share the concerns you have expressed. It does little good to expend energy complaining about other people. It creates unnecessary conflict, when I believe we should be focusing on building our communities up. It also brings us down by introducing excessive negativity into our discussions.

Rather than dwell on what is wrong with our neighbors, I think we might be better off focusing on what kind of society we wish to build. There is much we can do that we don't even realize.

[RonMN]

I also think this is a great post! Also check out "Planning For The Masses (your good deed for the day)" under the planning for the future catagory. Only that thread was more about "doing" and this one is more about "discussion".

Anyhoo, I think the Us & Them mentality is much a survival skill based on fear. Let's face it...if 50 starving suburbanites are swimming frantically towards your little 1 man life boat...you are going to row AWAY from them as if your life depended on it.

While some see PO on the horizon & try to prep while being shot down by family, friends & neighbors (who refuse to lift a finger to save themselves), it becomes apparent that these are the people who are going to try desperately to cling to the side of your life boat...sinking it...and causing you to die right along with them.

That type of thinking can then spill over into all discussions, political, environmental, hell...even red states Vs. blue states.

Granted, we would all be much better off if there was no "us & them" mentality...But as long as people choose to believe that nothing bad could ever happen...i'll be holding onto that mentality because it could save my life some day.

[TheTurtle]

All 6.5 billion of you are like sisters and brothers to me.
And I love each and every one of you very much.

When it all comes crashing down, please come share whatever meager scraps of food I have. What is mine is yours.

I love you all ...

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

what a cheek you are today Turtle! lol.

Yes, there is an us/them mentality and it is going to get worse. The more they kick and scream and pout about how things are going, how they will continue to change and how bad things get... they will just whine even more about how their lives aren't working out the way they want and they are being deprived because they can't drive their Hummers.

To change this consumerist way of thinking, your thinking has to do a 180 (complete about face). You can't just go half way because there are already concessions built into it. (IE: driving a small car on biofuel instead of resorting to the amish way of life).

But the danger in keeping the things that are workable is that people will be tempted to keep one or two small things that aren't workable and that is the way to disaster.

Like Ron says they are intent on denying things until its too late and then they will try to drag you down with them.

The good thing aobut it is that its a lot easier to cross this "us vs. them" line than almost anyother line that has separated anyother two factions. but they have to wake up and commit themselves. and believe me they are as dedicated to their choice as we are to ours.

[greenworm]

q0qpg,

I think you answered the question. Create a thread. If you don't start change, who will?
I think the us/them group think originally stems from frustration. There are a lot of people who are concerned about the current trends in society. For instance, war. There are a large percentage of people who oppose this, but for some reason anti-war groups are making no head way whatsoever. Frustration builds and causes divide. I think a large percentage of folks just like to throw the lingo around, Mcmansion this and Mcmansion that, but they haven't seriously taken action to change their own lives in a more sustainable manner. I think this is done for acceptance purposes.

I had to ride in a minivan with 3 screaming kids, a blearing radio, a blearing dvd player and two adults fighting in the front seats. I wanted to scream and all I could think of is this wasteful 12 mpg lifestyle is going to be the death of all. I sunk in my seat and began to think me vs. them. Why? Frustration. I've tried to change their mind set, but for some reason they do not budge. I've warned them time and time again that they wouldn't be in so much credit card debt if they changed their lifestyle. It is like talking to a wall, frustrating.

[seven]

Some interesting and worthy points - thank you for posting.

Us vs: them may have a lot to do with what kind of thinkers/reaction types people are by nature. Those who primarily have a strong emotional/instinctive reation to any stimulus, with lesser intellectual/imagination reaction probably tend to be us/them types. Conversely, those whose primary response to an idea or event is primarily intellectual, or a strong 'intellectual curiosity', or an imaginative response, usually manage to avoid the us/them mentality - and are often the ones trying to mediate between us/thems or to explain concepts. Unfortunately, the emotional/instinctive types seem to have far greater numbers.

*This is not to say that those who are intellectually open don't have feelings or instincts - just that they tend to be naturally open to discussing/evaluating/trying ideas or concepts, while the other type is not.

Many people in America (except those old enough to remember the great depression) simply have no frame of reference to imagine actually experiencing great hardship, huge loss or disaster. We have been in a safe, prosperous cocoon for many years, with only 9/11 and Katrina to slap us in the national face with unpleasant reality...and that has only been in the last five years. People who have been spoiled by ease and comfort have a natural disinclination to consider the possibility that their luxury might 'go away' - they even cease to see it as luxury, and feel it is their 'right' of lifestyle. Being spoiled also breeds mental/emotional/spiritual weakness and apathy - which makes many woefully unprepared to deal with PO...let alone to listen to hard facts about it beforehand.

My expererience with most people is that they don't listen until it's too late - and it takes substantial hardship, often actual disaster for most humans to change their ways. Of course, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try.