[aflurry]

I was wondering if I could get the forum's reraction to these three ideas:

Plug-In Hybrid-Electric Vehicles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hy ... ic_vehicle

Automated Highway Systems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_highway_system

Vehicle to Grid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_to_grid

Tentatively, it seems to me like each of these three ideas represents a fairly small technological leap from currently in-use technology, would each have an incremental impact on fuel usage while at the same time allowing more flexible allocation of existing energy sources (perhaps a highly overlooked benefit), without demanding any major and unweildy (and politically suicidal) changes in current behavior patterns.

However, when looked at as a complementary suite of technologies the gains might reenforce one another to dramatically increase fuel efficiency.

I haven't heard of anyone proposing a third rail type of addition to the AHS, but that might increase the usefulness of V2G and the desirability of PEHV's to the consumer. I would love to hook up to an automatic freeway on my commute (if i had one), kick it reading a book for the duration, while paying reduced fuel rates for the privilege, and arrive at my destination with the batteries charged for the surface streets.

Meanwhile the electricity powering my car could be derived from the most efficient generator of the day (coal, nuclear, wind, NG, oil, oceanic thermal displacement or whatever that's called).

While I am not a cornucopian by any means, i am not the first one to connect the complementary nature of these technologies (except the third rail bit... that's mine, so all you inventors back off), and nothing here is dependent on suspect claims about the BTU output of how many hectares of switchgrass crops. This stuff is all pretty much proven, and even the cost of implementation wouldn't be much over existing expansion of hybrid technologies in vehicle manufacturing, some added roadway maintenance, grid monitoring devices, etc. And the implementation is fully incremental, no huge up-fron investment without corresponding gains.

So, that said, tear my little dream to shreds, please.

[grillzilla]

Well, if you have been watching the automotive news lately you know the rumors are heavy that Toyota is working hard on a phev drivetrain for the Prius. Honda is keeping their cards close to the vest, but the rivalry between the two over mileage figures will surely push the envelope on hybrid drivetrains.

I too would love the third rail idea to be reality, or even wired roadways.

One thing I don't read about is the effect of having large numbers of autos recharging at night, suddenly the 'low usage' hours become high usage?

[aflurry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('grillzilla', 'O')ne thing I don't read about is the effect of having large numbers of autos recharging at night, suddenly the 'low usage' hours become high usage?

[RonMN]

One thing you need to remember is that PO isn't just about oil...it's more about the economy.

One thing we could do right now today, is carpool...if everybody did it we could cut our transportation cunsumption of oil in half OVERNIGHT! But what would that do to the auto industry? Or the tire industry? Then what do we do with the massive amounts of unemployed people?

This is the real problem. (or "conundrum" as greenspan would say). We've built a society based on CHEAP oil, with an economic model that MUST have continuous growth.

[aflurry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RonMN', '
')One thing we could do right now today, is carpool...if everybody did it we could cut our transportation cunsumption of oil in half OVERNIGHT! But what would that do to the auto industry? Or the tire industry? Then what do we do with the massive amounts of unemployed people?

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aflurry', 'I') guess it leads back to the issue that energy usage is a zero-sum game, like the stock market. What schemes like these attempt can be called a type of arbitrage on localized inefficiencies within the system. You can save a little here and now by shifting weight from stressed market segments to unstressed ones, say from liquid fuel to power plant generation. But as with any arbitrage opportunity, it is temporary and will quickly exhibit diminishing returns.

Arbitrage is certainly a helpful process that promotes market efficieny, but it has no real potential for overall gains in the system. Claims that it will do so are a kind of sleight of hand trick.

[aflurry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', 'Y')ep, that about sums it up...

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aflurry', 'h')mm. does anyone out there think this kind of project has any significant value? can you back it up with words? i would love to hear it.

[aflurry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')If your goal is to maximize efficiency as far as resource use is concerned so that "business as usual" can otherwise continue, then I suspect that Jevons' observations will eventually call into question the relative merit of such an arrangement...

[gg3]

PHEVs: Excellent. This topic has been covered elsewhere so I don't need to comment beyond that except to say I'll be eager to buy one when they come out.

Automated Highway Systems: Ask yourself this: what happens when you have cars speeding along at freeway speeds, managed by computers, and with only one car-length of space between them or less.... and then one of them has a tire blowout, or the mattress or bookcase one is carrying on its roof suddenly gets caught by a gust of wind and blows off into the highway lane, or any other obstruction or hazard suddenly appears on the roadway....?

What happens is you suddenly get a chain-reaction pile-up of multiple cars, with plenty of serious injuries, because, computer or no computer, you cannot stop a moving mass of that size quickly enough to avoid the aforementioned hazards. IMHO, automated highway systems are a crock of bulls--- of the worst type, a complete fraud, an idiot's concept of how to milk R&D money from government agencies, and will never actually get built. A total waste, a truly stupid idea, and did I mention, a crock of bulls---?

Vehicle-to-grid, on the other hand: Wonderful idea. For example all those parked cars could provide buffering for the intermittency of wind power. This might enable wind power to be increased from the present limit of 20% of grid capacity to perhaps as high as 30%, thereby buying much-needed time in the overall construction schedule between wind (fast to build, limited percentage of grid capacity) and nuclear (a bit slower to build, but firm & dispatchable baseload power).

PHEVs plus V-2-Grid, together, could be a winning combination. Think of this as a huge uninterruptable power supply that can back up local grid segments in the event of an outage due to e.g. a fried squirrel or a generator going suddenly offline. And in the event an outage lasted long enough to deplete all these vehicle batteries, the vehicles could still run on their internal combustion engines (e.g. biodiesel as per the present Diamler/Chrysler Sprinter van deployment in Germany).

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aflurry', 'w')ow... i guess i never actually read that post. ...(1835-1882)... damn impressive, almost uncanny seeming, when someone nails something on the head so squarely more than 100 years in advance of other thinkers.

[Speed]

The acceleration/deceleration of mass is the single most important element, rather than drivetrain efficiency, in high mileage automobiles. Industry studies have conclusively proven that. But ultra-light/ultra-strong materials and structures been proven prohibitively expensive - so we still drive around cars built of the same old stamped steel construction that has remained the industry standard since the early 1920's.

I saw a model of a rather neat looking streamlined sportscar inside a NASA exhibit several years ago that claimed around 1,000 lbs, micro-engine and 80 MPG. But I have not heard of the project since.

[aflurry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', '
')Automated Highway Systems: Ask yourself this: what happens when you have cars speeding along at freeway speeds, managed by computers, and with only one car-length of space between them or less.... and then one of them has a tire blowout, or the mattress or bookcase one is carrying on its roof suddenly gets caught by a gust of wind and blows off into the highway lane, or any other obstruction or hazard suddenly appears on the roadway....?

[aflurry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')It seems an inherent property of organisms that, given opportunity (for example by eliminating a species that preys upon it) and resources (an abundance of food/energy), their population expands in such a way that it inevitably overshoots the resource base, precipitating a dieoff.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aflurry', 'G')reat peak oil read:

Earth Abides

[aflurry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aflurry', 'G')reat peak oil read:

Earth Abides