[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Atlantean_Relic', 'M')y answer to the topic is this; A rampaging elephant is a rampaging elephant no matter what color you paint it.

[Pops]

Sven, I guess my point is the opposite - there is no big plan and the shepherd dogs are starting to realize that something smells like wolf and are looking for an opening.

They may all be dead ends and as Seahorse says we could certainly find more to try…

But eventually we will try all those branches he/she mentions and wind up right where we started and I think maybe the sooner the better.


Novus I agree with you about the long running momentum in the wrong direction, but do you see my point about the little squirts in the other direction? No, it’s not a tide or even a trickle but maybe a squirt?

[RonMN]

Pops said:
Sheep aren't always as dumb as they are cracked up to be.

But a good start I supose on getting to the eventual realization that the way we live part is the real problem...

Pops...I couldn't agree more. We ARE the problem...and yet...sometimes sheep ARE as dumb as they're cracked up to be.

WE continue to drive, use lawnmowers, tractors, ships (etc.) and bitch about global warming & riot in the streets over power outtages (you & i may not riot, but persons do). WE are the problem! Not the dem's or neocons (although both could use some serious education)...it's us!

We have looked into the face of the enemy and he is us

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'S')till, I am surprised at how fast the They are trying to force the techno-fix.

[kochevnik]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')
Still, I am surprised at how fast the They are trying to force the techno-fix.

Perhaps, as I mentioned, They feel the underlying anxiety amongst the citizens about PO being the cause of our outside endeavors …

Sheep aren't always as dumb as they are cracked up to be.

[strider3700]

Yes I'm a doomer, but to me it's pretty clear that there is no solution. The powers that be should obviously know this as well.

The real problem is the people can't accept that fact, so they can't be told.

Instead we come up with token attempts at solutions that are doomed to fail miserably but each one buys that little bit of time putting off the inevitable and giving the people something to cling to.

Noone wants to be at the helm when the ship goes down so delay delay delay...

[IslandCrow]

Maybe we are at the bargaining stage, but a few years earlier than in the article below (did someone mention 'fast-forwarding'):

From ASPO newsletter 52 (www.peakoil.net):
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')530 Reacting to terminal illness
Brian Regan makes a telling comparison, commenting as follows:

It has occurred to me that Elisabeth Kübler-Ross' "grief cycle," initially discovered by her as the typical path of a patient’s reaction to the unwelcome news of terminal illness, might also be applied to the end of cheap, suitable oil. I am listing it here, with my own guesses (in parentheses) about the reactions to peak oil, and some conjectures respecting the time frames of such reactions. I think it sums up much that has been written about the future effects of the phenomenon.

Shock Stage
Initial paralysis at hearing the bad news. (Inability to relate the prospect of growth cessation to anything in past experience.) ca. 2000

Denial Stage
Trying to avoid the inevitable. (Rigid refusal to accept the outlandish notion that cheap oil of the right kind will end soon.) 2000-2007

Anger Stage
Frustrated outpouring of bottled-up emotion. (Outrage at "Big Oil," Saudi Arabia, China, government taxation, etc.) 2005-2009

Bargaining Stage
Seeking in vain for a way out. ("Throw the bums out" by electing new leaders, heavy investing in expensive alternatives, calls for "science" to save us, expecting a deus ex machina.) 2008-2012

Depression Stage
Final realization of the inevitable. (Even flat-earth economists surrender, presidential politicians state facts publicly, businesses begin collapsing in droves, return of the Great Depression foretokens collapse.) 2011-2015

Testing Stage
Seeking realistic solutions. (National impoverishment forces abandonment of socialist policies and international development aid, various alternative-energy schemes tested and most abandoned, local farming grows, large cities wither, beginnings of martial law to keep order, interregional conflicts.) 2013-2025

Acceptance Stage
Finally finding the way forward. (War, collapse.) 2018-2075

[galacticsurfer]

Yeah, like I called my brother who lives exurb with a big house and several cars( I live in an apartment in a European city and ride my bike-no car) and asked him about his driving costs. I told him aobut the USA today article citing USD 8000/year car costs and he said he has the cars paid off, does his own repairs,etc. so maybe USD 2500/year-no problemo. So ok on that point. He also said "they are working on hybrids and stuff". Ok at least he is thinking of the big picture. When I said maybe in 5 years oil is gone(ok so I exaggerate) he said 40 years. He exaggerates in the other direction.

Obviously all his capital is in his house(paid off and built himself- very conservative) so moving into the town to avoid massive transport costs in future is hard going, emotional attachment to home and environment, way of life is peaceful, quiet, etc. So do you give up everything you built up and your whole lifestyle/belief system because maybe you read a book that says the world will end next week or because you read stuff in the internet which contradicts your conservative viewpoint and all government statistics and reassurances? Hell no. You stay put and avoid hysterical reactions and maybe if you are a bit worried store a few dried or canned goods, batteries, matches etc. and the next car is maybe a hybrid instead of the SUV.

Inertia is very real except in the commodities markets, etc. where trading happens with a push of the button.

The interstate highway system, 150 million vehicles and the housing stock of the 'burbs are a huge investment. How many Jews stayed in Germany till it was too late due to their investment in property and business and lifestyle over many generations thinking the nazis were not really serious about their propoganda but lost their lives anyway although they saw themselves as good citizens and could not comprehend to the very end what was really happening to them? How bad will it be for us all because we do not want to change and just keep following what everyone else does until it is too late and no more gas is at the pumps and heating oil does not get delivered to our house and the wal-mart shelves are bare? Basically your average citizen does not believe in the mad max scenario because he has seen it in film too often and this reality for him/her has never been there except for a very short time in the early 70's and that was "just political" and most of us were relatively young or not alive then or particularly informed about peak oil.

My brother's 17 year old son just got his first 2nd hand car. My brother talked to me about how it would be when my son(now 7) gets his first car. I know that will never happen but did not have the heart to tell him what I thought. He would probably think I was crazy. A car is a birthright for young people in USA/Europe now. Soon it will not be anymore considered that way. At least the peace and quiet of the countrside will be brought to the city if everyone is reduced to bicycling and walking.

[Pops]

Thanks Crow. I hadn’t seen that version of the grief cycle and maybe that is a good description of what I was thinking about – bargaining. And like you and Ron say; Fast Forward. Even that old Doomer Campbell guessed that stage to be several years off!

Around here we’ve guessed for a long time that the first response to higher prices will be to pull out the stops on every scheme to keep our way of life from being negotiated. So I guess it shouldn’t be a surprise that is just what is happening.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kochevnik', ' ')I don't see jackshit for a response.

[retiredguy]

galacticsurfer,

Your annecdote describes the situation perfectly. The real problem is massive inertia to keep things as they are.

Substituting hybrids for SUVs will just postpone the inevitable and maybe make it worse.

Thanks for sharing.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('galacticsurfer', '.')..So do you give up everything you built up and your whole lifestyle/belief system because maybe you read a book...Hell no. You stay put and avoid hysterical reactions and maybe if you are a bit worried store a few dried or canned goods, batteries, matches etc. and the next car is maybe a hybrid instead of the SUV.

The interstate highway system, 150 million vehicles and the housing stock of the 'burbs are a huge investment...we do not want to change...

[foslrock]

The cluelessness that surrounds most of the human race is rather alarming.

The inertia of every additional mouthbreather that lacks a basic intelligence level for survival without cheap energy will take it's toll on on this entire planet in the future. I do not think many people within the confines of western culture have what it takes to survive on a planet without the modern conviences of suburbia. Once this inertia hit's the peak, and starts to crumble, then all of us will be effected when this comet comes back to earth.

I guess, one should never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

http://www.cantrip.org/stupidity.html?seenIEPage=1