[Guest]

Saw it on the BBC last night, this is the first in a series of documentaries that traces the (seemingly now apparent) kulturkampf between the neoconservative and islamist agendas from the second world war onwards. Intensely interesting, it takes the view that these seemingly diametric opposing world views are a result of both camps viewing the post war liberal consensus as being detrimental to their respective societies. And lying, killing, anything is permitted in stomping this individualistic, liberal (small l) yearning into pieces. available on suprnova.org too
-naz

[Laurasia]

It sounds very interesting - I wonder if it will ever make it onto TVs overseas. The BBC does some really good stuff.

Regards,

L.

[clv101]

I watched this, excellent program. Somewhat chilling in places, learning about what happened in the inner circles in the 70's - makes you think about what's going on today and how the general population are being played.

[bobaloo]

I watched it too, excellent program, never realized how much I had to blame Gerald Ford for (giving the neocons their first real jobs in DC).

It's available on bittorrent, check out www.suprnova.org

[savethehumans]

The BBC is far from perfect, but I wouldn't want the world without it!

[rowante]

This doco blew my mind and I've only seen 2 episodes (downloaded from suprnova.org).
WATCH IT, EVERYBODY!

[ohanian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rowante', 'T')his doco blew my mind and I've only seen 2 episodes (downloaded from suprnova.org).
WATCH IT, EVERYBODY!

[rowante]

Ok, fair enough...

The major point, is that neo-conservative philosophy and Islamic fundamentalism are both rooted in the same observations about U.S society. That is, progressive liberal policies will influence society, leading it down a path towards nihilism, ending in absolute chaos. The only way to prevent this from happening would be to rally the people to "Great" causes, inspired by grand myths such as religion or national superiority. The best way to rally the people to these myths is to create an arch-enemy of mythic evil status, such as the Soviet Union during the cold war or terrorism, or the "Great Satan - U.S." etc. It doesn't matter if these myths are false, only that the people believe.

The seeds of these ideas where formed in the 1950's on the neo-conservative side by a secretive philosopher Leo Strauss. At the same time an Egyptian by the name of Kutb, who was studying in the U.S reached similar conclusions. Kutb, was later brutally tortured in Egypt, by Nassar's CIA trained security forces. At one point he was smeared in animal fat and locked in a cell with starving dogs. The torture radicalised Kutb, laying the foundation of Islamic terrorism.

The documentary follows the history of who was influenced by Kutb and Strauss directly to Usama Bin Laden and people in Bush's government such as Wolfowitz, Pearle, and Rumsfeld. It explains how these people manipulate public opinion by scaring the bejeesus out of them. And how both opposing sides fed and supported each others desires.

What blew my mind in particular, is a story in the first episode about terrorism and the CIA. All through the 70's the CIA had been collecting information about the Soviet Union. Satellite, spies, etc, etc, they knew the country better than the Kremlin. They knew that it was not a threat to America, that it was a failed state heading for collapse. The neo-conservatives refused to believe this and created doubt in the minds of the government. When Reagan came to office he appointed a new head to the CIA, William Casey, who had read this neo-con inspired book "The Terror Network" which tried to blame all global terrorism on the Soviet Union, from the IRA to the PLO, yep it was the fault of the bloody commies. So Casey explains to the CIA ops that something has to done about this, he was really worried about it. The CIA were dumbstruck, they tried to explain that the book was based on the CIA's black propaganda that had been leaked into western media. IT WAS U.S. PROPAGANDA! Talk about blowback!

This doco has been meticulously researched and edited, the usual fantastic BBC production values shining through. As I said before, you must see this, everybody must see this.

[ohanian]

I guess it's time to re-read

The IRON DREAM

by Norman Spinrad


Go! swastika Go! Let's kill those evil mutants.
Death to the evil Dominators.
All heil Feric Jaggar, LORD OF THE SWASTIKA,
Saviour of the true humans.

[ohanian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ohanian', 'I') guess it's time to re-read

The IRON DREAM

by Norman Spinrad


Go! swastika Go! Let's kill those evil mutants.
Death to the evil Dominators.
All heil Feric Jaggar, LORD OF THE SWASTIKA,
Saviour of the true humans.

[Licho]

You can easilly find it using http://search.suprnova.org/ and then download using bit torrent such as http://www.bitcomet.com/doc/download.htm
Part 3 contains the important points, but you have to watch parts1 and 2 to understand it properly.

[TrueKaiser]

it's interesting. i am about to watch part three. it has some good points but i see one thing that will make it's point mute. watch the interviews they have in this carefully. one second the guy they are talking too is sitting one way and a split second latter they are in a differnt position. it makes the interviews look heavly edited to make the people sound like they agree with them. they do this at least once on everyone they interview and about five times on one of them.

[Guest]

I havnt seen these series but the glorifying of bbc is over the top here. BBC is the mouthpiece of the british interests more or less, NEVER forget this. Sure, they make some APOLITICAL good stuff but as soon as they go political, it stinks imperialism and western interests all over the place.

Regarding Kutb and the seed to islamic fundamentalism. Look, it doesnt matter who or what was the seed to it all. Its no point in arguing that there is a link between OBL and kutb. So what? It should be clear to everyone that its the CIRCUMSTANCES that does it. Islamic fundamentalism has been there all the time, from the time of french colonialism in algeria and north africa in general, to british occupation of iraq around WWI and so on. Its nothing new. These "seeds" that is being talked about here takes you away from the main point here and that is colonialism, capitalism and imperialism. If marx wouldnt have written about the commie manifesto, it would have gotten another name written at another time; it was bound to happen during the appaling circumstances for workers during the 1800s and industrialisation.

[V]

Actually the BBc is an independent body, not linked to any govt body. So its wrong to assume that it projects british interest. It's something like PBS.

[TyeDye]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('V', 'A')ctually the BBc is an independent body, not linked to any govt body. So its wrong to assume that it projects british interest. It's something like PBS.

[avisolo]

I wonder how many people have actually read Leo Strauss? If you read Strauss with the care he deserves then you will stay out of politics as much as possible!
Read Qutb too and see the difference for yourself:

Leo Strauss'What is Political Philosophy?':
"Philosophy strives for knowledge of the whole. The whole is the totality of the parts. The whole eludes us, but we know parts: we possess partial knowledge of parts. The knowledge which we possess is characterized by a fundamental dualism which has never been overcome. At one pole we find knowledge of homogeneity: above all in arithmetic, but also in the other branches of mathematics, and derivatively in all productive arts or crafts. At the opposite pole we find knowledge of heterogeneity, and in particular of heterogeneous ends; the highest form of this kind of knowledge is the art of the statesman and of the educator. The latter kind of knowledge is superior to the former for this reason. As knowledge of the ends of human life, it is knowledge of what makes human life complete or whole; it is therefore knowledge of a whole.
Knowledge of the ends of man implies knowledge of the human soul; and the human soul is the only part of the whole which is open to the whole and therefore more akin to the whole than anything else is. But this knowledge-the political art in the highest sense-is not knowledge of the whole. It seems that knowledge of the whole would have to combine somehow political knowledge in the highest sense with knowledge of homogeneity. And this combination is not at our disposal. Men are therefore constantly tempted to force the issue by imposing unity on the phenomena, by absolutizing either knowledge of homogeneity or knowledge of ends. Men are constantly attracted and deluded by two opposite charms: the charm of competence which is engendered by mathematics and everything akin to mathematics, and the charm of humble awe, which is engendered by meditation on the human soul and its experiences.
Philosophy is characterized by the gentle, if firm, refusal to succumb to either charm.It is the highest form of the mating of courage and moderation. In spite of its highness or nobility, it could appear as Sisyphean or ugly, when one contrasts its achievement with its goal. Yet it is necessarily accompanied, sustained and elevated by eros. It is graced by nature’s grace."
http://www2.bc.edu/~wilsonop/biblio.html

Qutb 'Milestones':
"Philosophy, the interpretation of history, psychology (except for those observations and experimental results which are not part of anyone's opinion) ethics, theology and comparative religion, sociology (excluding statistics and observations)-all these sciences have a direction which in the past or the present has been influenced by jahili beliefs and traditions. That is why all these sciences come into conflict, explicitly or implicitly, with the fundamentals of any religion, and especially with Islam.
The situation concerning these areas of human thought and knowledge is not the same as with physics, chemistry, astronomy, biology, medicine, etc. - as long as these last- mentioned sciences limit themselves to practical experiments and their results, and do not go beyond their scope into speculative philosophy. For example, Darwinist biology goes beyond the scope of its observations, without any rhyme or reason and only for the sake of expressing an opinion, in making the assumption that to explain the beginning of life and its evolution there is no need to assume a power outside the physical world.
Concerning these matters, the true guidance from his Sustainer is sufficient for a Muslim. This guidance toward belief and complete submission to God alone is so superior to all man's speculative attempts in these affairs that they appear utterly ridiculous and absurd."
http://www.islamistwatch.org/texts/qutb/Milestones/

[mindfarkk]

i see something about BBC Spookes, season 1 & 2. i don't see anything abou tthe power of nightmares. what am i missing?

[clv101]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mindfarkk', 'i') see something about BBC Spookes, season 1 & 2. i don't see anything abou tthe power of nightmares. what am i missing?

[Ayoob_Reloaded]

and once again, I'm convinced that the War on Terror is just manufactured bullshit designed to whip the public up into a frenzy, hiding the real reason we're in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Purest evil.

We're the new Nazis.

[savethehumans]

Ayoob, have you read Michael Moore's latest book, "Will They Ever Trust Us Again"? Nothing but letters from soldiers who are in S.W. Asia, or were; military veterans who see the truth; and friends and relatives of people like these. It packs the best punch of anything that anyone could! If people read this book and refuse to see what's going on, they are beyond enlightening! This book may be the best thing that Mike's ever done, bar none! If you haven't read it, get yourself a copy ASAP--it's worth 1000x more than you'll pay for it ($22 at bookstores, cheaper, of course, via amazon).