Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Unread postby Wildwell » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 22:22:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Andrew_S', '
')Did I say the Japanese were nice? Not an area I've studied carefully but the Japs may well have surrendered fairly quickly anyway. That is not widely stated in the West because it doesn't fit the "justification".


I suggest you go and study them. The Japanese were some of the best fighters on the planet and wouldn't have surrendered.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Andrew_S', '
')
How many German civilians were killed by the Allies during the war?



Quite a few, much like the thousands of British, French, Belgians, Jews, Gays and just about any one else the Nazis didn't like. It doesn't make it 'right' though. What do you want an apology on behalf on a British citizen born 30 years after the war for difficult decisions to put an end to two of the most evil regimes this planet has ever known? Yes I do seethe with emotion, for a start I find it hard to believe human beings can do such untold things to each other on behalf of politicians, but more to the point how you address me to answer the question relating to a cooked up history book or version you’ve decided that’s the correct version.
User avatar
Wildwell
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1962
Joined: Thu 03 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: UK

Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Unread postby Doly » Tue 11 Apr 2006, 06:20:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Andrew_S', '
')Did I say the Japanese were nice? Not an area I've studied carefully but the Japs may well have surrendered fairly quickly anyway. That is not widely stated in the West because it doesn't fit the "justification".


I suggest you go and study them. The Japanese were some of the best fighters on the planet and wouldn't have surrendered.


In fact, I read that Hirohito (the Japanese emperor at the time) did want to surrender, but his generals were saying no because they'd rather die than lose face. Considering that the emperor was boss, I think the Japanese would have surrendered without the Bomb, given a little time to settle the internal politics.
User avatar
Doly
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 4370
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00

Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Unread postby bobcousins » Tue 11 Apr 2006, 06:20:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', '"')But enough of the personal stuff: In answer to the question was the bombing of Dresden, Hamburg and the Japanese cities a war crime, in the circumstances no. The madness had to stop somehow, and if it meant ‘shock and awe’ that’s the way it had to be, for better or worse. "

So basically its allright to target civilians in an aggressor nation?

Anyone who commits war crimes will have an excuse, will plead mitigating circumstance, blame the other party. How does one decide? Based on who the victors are?


This is absurd! You can't attack someone, and expect them to play by your rules, when you are threatening them with extinction. The whole purpose of war is to bypass the normal rules and decide by force who rules : the winner takes all.

And if some revionist neo-Nazis wish to plead for Germany, who started two world wars and committed despicable acts of genocide, they can hang with the rest of the murdering Nazis.
It's all downhill from here
User avatar
bobcousins
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1164
Joined: Thu 14 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Left the cult
Top

Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Unread postby foodnotlawns » Tue 11 Apr 2006, 06:53:33

I think any discussion of the history of the World Wars needs to start with Benjamin Freedman's writings. Most Americans are unaware of what this insider revealed about what went on behind the scenes in the Wilson administration, or about how the Jews declared a "Holy War" on Germany in 1933.

http://www.rense.com/general34/amaz.htm

Benjamin H. Freedman was one of the most intriguing and amazing individuals of the 20th century. Born in 1890, he was a successful Jewish businessman of New York City at one time principal owner of the Woodbury Soap Company. He broke with organized Jewry after the Judeo-Communist victory of 1945, and spent the remainder of his life and the great preponderance of his considerable fortune, at least 2.5 million dollars, exposing the Jewish tyranny which has enveloped the United States.

Mr. Freedman knew what he was talking about because he had been an insider at the highest levels of Jewish organizations and Jewish machinations to gain power over our nation. Mr. Freedman was personally acquainted with Bernard Baruch, Samuel Untermyer, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, Joseph Kennedy, John F. Kennedy, and many more movers and shakers of our times.

<snip>

Benjamin Freedman Speaks:

Here in the United States, the Zionists and their co-religionists have complete control of our government. For many reasons, too many and too complex to go into here at this time, the Zionists and their co-religionists rule these United States as though they were the absolute monarchs of this country. Now you may say that is a very broad statement, but let me show you what happened while we were all asleep.

<snip>

Within two years Germany had won that war: not only won it nominally, but won it actually. The German submarines, which were a surprise to the world, had swept all the convoys from the Atlantic Ocean. Great Britain stood there without ammunition for her soldiers, with one week's food supply -- and after that, starvation. At that time, the French army had mutinied. They had lost 600,000 of the flower of French youth in the defense of Verdun on the Somme. The Russian army was defecting, they were picking up their toys and going home, they didn't want to play war anymore, they didn't like the Czar. And the Italian army had collapsed.

Not a shot had been fired on German soil. Not one enemy soldier had crossed the border into Germany. And yet, Germany was offering England peace terms. They offered England a negotiated peace on what the lawyers call a status quo ante basis. That means: "Let's call the war off, and let everything be as it was before the war started." England, in the summer of 1916 was considering that -- seriously. They had no choice. It was either accepting this negotiated peace that Germany was magnanimously offering them, or going on with the war and being totally defeated.

While that was going on, the Zionists in Germany, who represented the Zionists from Eastern Europe, went to the British War Cabinet and -- I am going to be brief because it's a long story, but I have all the documents to prove any statement that I make -- they said: "Look here. You can yet win this war. You don't have to give up. You don't have to accept the negotiated peace offered to you now by Germany. You can win this war if the United States will come in as your ally." The United States was not in the war at that time. We were fresh; we were young; we were rich; we were powerful. They told England: "We will guarantee to bring the United States into the war as your ally, to fight with you on your side, if you will promise us Palestine after you win the war." In other words, they made this deal: "We will get the United States into this war as your ally. The price you must pay is Palestine after you have won the war and defeated Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey." Now England had as much right to promise Palestine to anybody, as the United States would have to promise Japan to Ireland for any reason whatsoever. It's absolutely absurd that Great Britain, that never had any connection or any interest or any right in what is known as Palestine should offer it as coin of the realm to pay the Zionists for bringing the United States into the war. However, they did make that promise, in October of 1916. And shortly after that -- I don't know how many here remember it -- the United States, which was almost totally pro-German, entered the war as Britain's ally.

I say that the United States was almost totally pro-German because the newspapers here were controlled by Jews, the bankers were Jews, all the media of mass communications in this country were controlled by Jews; and they, the Jews, were pro-German. They were pro-German because many of them had come from Germany, and also they wanted to see Germany lick the Czar. The Jews didn't like the Czar, and they didn't want Russia to win this war. These German-Jew bankers, like Kuhn Loeb and the other big banking firms in the United States refused to finance France or England to the extent of one dollar. They stood aside and they said: "As long as France and England are tied up with Russia, not one cent!" But they poured money into Germany, they fought beside Germany against Russia, trying to lick the Czarist regime.

Now those same Jews, when they saw the possibility of getting Palestine, went to England and they made this deal. At that time, everything changed, like a traffic light that changes from red to green. Where the newspapers had been all pro-German, where they'd been telling the people of the difficulties that Germany was having fighting Great Britain commercially and in other respects, all of a sudden the Germans were no good. They were villains. They were Huns. They were shooting Red Cross nurses. They were cutting off babies' hands. They were no good. Shortly after that, Mr. Wilson declared war on Germany.

The Zionists in London had sent cables to the United States, to Justice Brandeis, saying "Go to work on President Wilson. We're getting from England what we want. Now you go to work on President Wilson and get the United States into the war." That's how the United States got into the war. We had no more interest in it; we had no more right to be in it than we have to be on the moon tonight instead of in this room. There was absolutely no reason for World War I to be our war. We were railroaded into -- if I can be vulgar, we were suckered into -- that war merely so that the Zionists of the world could obtain Palestine. That is something that the people of the United States have never been told. They never knew why we went into World War I.

After we got into the war, the Zionists went to Great Britain and they said: "Well, we performed our part of the agreement. Let's have something in writing that shows that you are going to keep your bargain and give us Palestine after you win the war." They didn't know whether the war would last another year or another ten years. So they started to work out a receipt. The receipt took the form of a letter, which was worded in very cryptic language so that the world at large wouldn't know what it was all about. And that was called the Balfour Declaration.
User avatar
foodnotlawns
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu 07 Apr 2005, 03:00:00

Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Unread postby gary_malcolm » Tue 11 Apr 2006, 07:40:36

What hair splitting bullshit.

War is the crime and all practioners should be held accountable.

What war has a civilian populace started? War is a tool of the powerful to dominate others. Killing and murder is inherently repugnant, evil, and a mark of insanity. All murder apologists of any ilk, no matter how glorious the cause, deserve to be sent to the front where they can face other mad, drooling monsters just like themselves.

Then I'll be able to garden in peace and have a potluck with the neighbors.

G$
Gary Malcolm

US Empire

There is no alternative source for our gluttony. Power down or die.
gary_malcolm
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue 26 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: US Empire

Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Unread postby venky » Tue 11 Apr 2006, 10:27:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', '"')But enough of the personal stuff: In answer to the question was the bombing of Dresden, Hamburg and the Japanese cities a war crime, in the circumstances no. The madness had to stop somehow, and if it meant ‘shock and awe’ that’s the way it had to be, for better or worse. "

So basically its allright to target civilians in an aggressor nation?

Anyone who commits war crimes will have an excuse, will plead mitigating circumstance, blame the other party. How does one decide? Based on who the victors are?


This is absurd! You can't attack someone, and expect them to play by your rules, when you are threatening them with extinction. The whole purpose of war is to bypass the normal rules and decide by force who rules : the winner takes all.

And if some revionist neo-Nazis wish to plead for Germany, who started two world wars and committed despicable acts of genocide, they can hang with the rest of the murdering Nazis.


Then why the term war crime in the first place!!

The Dresden and Hamburg bombings were war crimes by any definition of the word; were morally repugnant and militarily unnecessary. Though understandable in the light of the blitz, it doesn't justify it.
I play the cards I'm dealt, though I sometimes bluff.

Only Man is vile.
venky
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Sun 13 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Top

We, the USA, are the "Nazis" now

Unread postby foodnotlawns » Wed 12 Apr 2006, 15:40:36

That's right. Our government is committing crimes against humanity. No more need to pose as morally superior "greatest generation," any more.

We morally posed ourselves right into becoming the supposed Evil we destroyed.

I think it would be useful to go around saying that. "The US are the Nazis now, and Bush is a comic book version of the Hollywood version of Hitler."

One big difference. Germans in the Third Reich were very happy. Most of us Amerikwans are miserable.
User avatar
foodnotlawns
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu 07 Apr 2005, 03:00:00

Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Wed 12 Apr 2006, 20:26:43

I think the bottom line is that the Dresden and Hamburg bombings were not war crimes because the US and the UK won the war. Had Germany won the war, Dresden and Hamburg would have been war crimes and Aushwitz would have been given the same degree of concern as America's concentration camps for Japanese were. The victor makes the laws. Thus the victor can never violate the laws. If the victor does somehow violate the laws, they need only change them. If you thought blowing up millions of people had something to do with some overriding ethical standard, you're crocked.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
User avatar
smallpoxgirl
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7258
Joined: Mon 08 Nov 2004, 04:00:00

Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Unread postby Schweinshaxe » Thu 13 Apr 2006, 19:11:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'I') think the bottom line is that the Dresden and Hamburg bombings were not war crimes because the US and the UK won the war. Had Germany won the war, Dresden and Hamburg would have been war crimes and Aushwitz would have been given the same degree of concern as America's concentration camps for Japanese were. The victor makes the laws. Thus the victor can never violate the laws. If the victor does somehow violate the laws, they need only change them. If you thought blowing up millions of people had something to do with some overriding ethical standard, you're crocked.


The question was if YOU think it was a war crime or not. Was it right to punish the German people for voting Hitler into power? Would it be right to punish the American people if it turns out that the Bush Iraqi WMD theory was wrong?

Would it be acceptable if the EU decides to nuke 2 million Americans to death as punishment for voting a President into power that caused inconvenience here in Old Europe by starting a war and make us Europeans pay 30 Euro cents more at the pump?
Was soll das?
User avatar
Schweinshaxe
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun 29 May 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Schweinland-Pfalz
Top

Previous

Return to Open Topic Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron