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Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby venky » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 18:25:00

I believe such actions, including the atom bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki is terrorism, pure and simple. Like the motive is not to actually contribute to the defeat of your enemy militarily but rather try and demoralize him by causing as much death as possible wilfully on civilians.

And some of the justifications that are used, like they started it first, Germany is the great satan, it saved the life of our troops are eerily similar to what one hears on the Bin Laden tapes.

On the other hand though I feel little sympathy for Germany in this case. After it is pretty clear that they did start it.
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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby TheTurtle » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 18:42:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schweinshaxe', 'F')eeling little sympathy for Germany can easily be understod, but you feel any sympathy for the Germans who died?


The death of innocents is always cause for sadness. :cry:
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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby Andrew_S » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 18:44:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', '
')On the other hand though I feel little sympathy for Germany in this case. After it is pretty clear that they did start it.


The Versailles treaty started the war in Europe. Something had to give.
The USA, UK and France determined that treaty.

And, in fact, France and GB declared war on Germany. Up till then Germany was simply trying to recover its own historical lands, including much of "Poland" in 1939 (even parts of "Lithuania"). It's no great surprise that few in the West actually know the history - the media work at keeping people ignorant.
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Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby Schweinshaxe » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 19:03:02

"They have sowed the wind and so shall they reap the whirlwind": British Air Marshal Arthur "Bomber" Harris.

Was the killing of hundreds of thousands of civilians in Hamburg and Dresden in the firestorms at the end on WWII a war crime? Was the bombing of Dresden and Hamburg of any strategic importance or was it just a way to punish the German people for voting Hitler into power? Why were fire bombs and not conventional explosive bombs used?

Hamburg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of ... rld_War_II

Dresden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of ... rld_War_II

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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby Schweinshaxe » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 19:25:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'I') believe such actions, including the atom bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki is terrorism, pure and simple. Like the motive is not to actually contribute to the defeat of your enemy militarily but rather try and demoralize him by causing as much death as possible wilfully on civilians.

And some of the justifications that are used, like they started it first, Germany is the great satan, it saved the life of our troops are eerily similar to what one hears on the Bin Laden tapes.

On the other hand though I feel little sympathy for Germany in this case. After it is pretty clear that they did start it.


Feeling little sympathy for Germany can easily be understod, but you feel any sympathy for the Germans who died?
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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby 0mar » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 19:47:27

All's fair in war and love, in my opinion.

Germany bombed the shit outta Britian and would have forced them into submission if it weren't for Barbossa. Britian, when the tables were turned, did an about face and did the same.
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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby Andrew_S » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 19:48:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schweinshaxe', '
')
Was the killing of hundreds of thousands of civilians in Hamburg and Dresden in the firestorms at the end on WWII a war crime? Was the bombing of Dresden and Hamburg of any strategic importance or was it just a way to punish the German people for voting Hitler into power? Why were fire bombs and not conventional explosive bombs used?



They lied repeatedly in the British parliament about bombing policy. Question was "were they deliberately targetting civilian areas?". They said no, but it was a lie. The actual (secret) policy was to target civilians and kill as many as they could.

They lied to avoid the problems which would have arisen in Parliament and among the general populace of Britain.

Remember Churchill ordered German cities to be bombed to provoke the other side. Hitler held back from striking civilian targets for many months in the face of direct provocation. At the beginning of the war he wanted an agreement on not deliberately bombing civilians. The Allied Powers declined to make such an agreement.
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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby venky » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 20:09:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Andrew_S', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', '
')On the other hand though I feel little sympathy for Germany in this case. After it is pretty clear that they did start it.


The Versailles treaty started the war in Europe. Something had to give.
The USA, UK and France determined that treaty.

And, in fact, France and GB declared war on Germany. Up till then Germany was simply trying to recover its own historical lands, including much of "Poland" in 1939 (even parts of "Lithuania"). It's no great surprise that few in the West actually know the history - the media work at keeping people ignorant.


You could argue like that up to a point, Germany was only trying to take back what was its own. However, that argument breaks down beyond a certain point, I mean that does not explain Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium, Yugoslavia, Greece, the Soviet Union?
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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby venky » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 20:24:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schweinshaxe', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'I') believe such actions, including the atom bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki is terrorism, pure and simple. Like the motive is not to actually contribute to the defeat of your enemy militarily but rather try and demoralize him by causing as much death as possible wilfully on civilians.

And some of the justifications that are used, like they started it first, Germany is the great satan, it saved the life of our troops are eerily similar to what one hears on the Bin Laden tapes.

On the other hand though I feel little sympathy for Germany in this case. After it is pretty clear that they did start it.


Feeling little sympathy for Germany can easily be understod, but you feel any sympathy for the Germans who died?


To be honest, yes and no. Individual deaths are always a tragedy. But nevertheless the Germans do bear responsibility for the actions of their government and considering the immense suffering they inflicted on other nations the retribution was also a kind of justice. After what is a nation, but its people.

Nevertheless I think the Dresden bombings were a war crime, morally akin to terrorism as I said in my earlier post. Nor is terrorism today I think a legitimate form of resistance.
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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby Schweinshaxe » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 20:25:59

OK, I'm not trying to start a thread supporting what Germany did during WWII. Germany fucked up big time and I'm glad they lost the war.

If we want to discuss what belonged to whom in the passed I guess Sweden can claim more than half of Europe and the Ukraine as Swedish territory. That's just bullshit.

Was it a war crime to firebomb Hamburg and Dresden (and a few other German cities) or not? Was it of any strategic importance or was it just to punish the German people. Was it right or wrong?
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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby Andrew_S » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 20:30:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Andrew_S', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', '
')On the other hand though I feel little sympathy for Germany in this case. After it is pretty clear that they did start it.


The Versailles treaty started the war in Europe. Something had to give.
The USA, UK and France determined that treaty.

And, in fact, France and GB declared war on Germany. Up till then Germany was simply trying to recover its own historical lands, including much of "Poland" in 1939 (even parts of "Lithuania"). It's no great surprise that few in the West actually know the history - the media work at keeping people ignorant.


You could argue like that up to a point, Germany was only trying to take back what was its own. However, that argument breaks down beyond a certain point, I mean that does not explain Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium, Yugoslavia, Greece, the Soviet Union?



Yes. The partitioning of Poland between Soviet Union and Germany was where Hitler overstepped the mark (he gambled on their not declaring war). Much of the "Polish" territory was German pre-1914, but Stalin and Hitler agreed to divide Poland between themselves (remember also, that persecution and massacres of ethnic Germans had been going on for some years - part of the Versailles legacy).

Denmark and Norway were occupied for reasons of military strategic necessity. In fact a telegram from the Finnish ambassador in Paris to Helsinki finally decided the Germans that they *must* occupy Norway. They landed literally hours before a British invasion force was due to land in Narvik, northern Norway (yes, Britain was to invade neutral Norway).

Churchill made the mistake of believing the German ships heading north were an attempted breakout into the North Atlantic. Troops were on ships which had already set sail from Scotland for the Norway invasion. He ordered them taken back to port and disembarked (but kit left on the ships). The British navy then was deployed for a breakout and could not counter the German invasion. Amazing stuff. It was a matter of some hours and misjudgement by Churchill which stopped a *simultaneous* invasion of Norway by both. Denmark had to be occupied also. These were essential defensive actions (in the whole scheme of things).

I'm trying to work out what *might* have happened had e.g. Britain not declared war (Hitler desperately tried to avoid war with Britain). Would he have attacked France still? I don't know. Given an attack on France Belgium and the Netherlands were basically in the way and could not be left neutral.

You forgot France in your list.

Anyway, why did they declare war on Germany for the partition of Poland but not the Soviet Union?
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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby Wildwell » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 20:40:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Andrew_S', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schweinshaxe', '
')
Was the killing of hundreds of thousands of civilians in Hamburg and Dresden in the firestorms at the end on WWII a war crime? Was the bombing of Dresden and Hamburg of any strategic importance or was it just a way to punish the German people for voting Hitler into power? Why were fire bombs and not conventional explosive bombs used?



They lied repeatedly in the British parliament about bombing policy. Question was "were they deliberately targetting civilian areas?". They said no, but it was a lie. The actual (secret) policy was to target civilians and kill as many as they could.

They lied to avoid the problems which would have arisen in Parliament and among the general populace of Britain.

Remember Churchill ordered German cities to be bombed to provoke the other side. Hitler held back from striking civilian targets for many months in the face of direct provocation. At the beginning of the war he wanted an agreement on not deliberately bombing civilians. The Allied Powers declined to make such an agreement.


Not quite. The Dresden and Hamburg bombings were in response to the Blitz in England, when 1 million houses were destroyed and 43,000 people were killed. They’re still digging up bombs today.

‘During this first phase of the Blitz, an average of 200 bombers attacked London every night but one between mid-September and mid-November. They were primarily German but also included a number of Italian aircraft operating from Belgium. Birmingham and Bristol were attacked on 15 October, while the heaviest attack of the war so far — involving 400 bombers and lasting six hours — hit London. The RAF launched 41 fighters but only shot down one Heinkel bomber. By mid-November, the Germans had dropped over 13,000 tons of high explosive bombs and over 1 million incendiary bombs but had suffered less than a 1% casualty rate themselves.’

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz

Never mind 9/11.

On 14th November 1940 my Grandmother laid in bed (then 14) and listen for hours and hours and the grown of planes thundered overhead. Because of war secrecy they had no idea what was going on 100 miles or so away. Through ccde cracking at Bletchley park Churchill knew the Nazis were going to attack Coventry, but had to keep quiet and went to bed the same night knowing what was going to happen without telling the British people. It was only after tales from workers on the night that happened they could hear the bombs going off in Coventry and an angry glow could be seen 50 miles away to the south in Oxford.

This is all long before my time, but the stupidity of those times is still alive today. I took the ICE from Koln to Berlin a few weeks ago, I didn’t realise at first but then it dawned on me I was in the Ruhr valley. In the high hills to the south stands the Möhne Dam and the Eder Dam. Later we passed the Hamm yards that were the largest in the world at the time, often targeted by the Allies. I was passing through the home of the Nazi war machine. Ironically, just before Wolfsburg looks like the area I was brought up in on the other side of the channel. The German people are usually always friendly and charming, exemplified by the conductor on that train, so it was all rather strange.

No, I couldn’t feel any sympathy for the Nazi party, but I could feel sympathy for the innocent people caught up in it and especially those born after it.

But enough of the personal stuff: In answer to the question was the bombing of Dresden, Hamburg and the Japanese cities a war crime, in the circumstances no. The madness had to stop somehow, and if it meant ‘shock and awe’ that’s the way it had to be, for better or worse.

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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby venky » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 20:46:41

This thread seems to be deviating, but nevertheless I want to bring up a few points.

Actually there was a secret clause in the Anglo-Polish treaty of March 1939 that the country implied in the term 'threatning polish sovereignity' would be Germany and not the Soviet Union. Think the allies understood very the geopoltical catastrophe that would ensue in declaring war both on Germany and the Soviet Union. Nevertheless that did not prevent them from examining the possibility of sending an expeditionary force to Finland after the Soviet invasion.

My list was essentially a list of nations nuetral that Germany invaded with no provocation. France was not a nuetral. While one can argue military necessity (I am not convinced though that the allies were on the point of invading Norway) in does show that Germany was a brutal aggressor and had little respect for the sovereignity of nuetral states or the international order and law or whatever form of it existed before WW II. The way the nuetrals were governed post invasion was brutal even in the western countries; dont think the allies would have behaved the same way.

The point is while history was written by the victors one does not need Western propaganda to see which was the guilty party in WW II.
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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby threadbear » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 20:52:07

Fire bombing of Dresden and Hamburg and Japanese cities were atrocities against civilians that should have been tried in Nuremburg along with Nazi war crimes. Churchill should have been hung.
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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby venky » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 20:56:26

"But enough of the personal stuff: In answer to the question was the bombing of Dresden, Hamburg and the Japanese cities a war crime, in the circumstances no. The madness had to stop somehow, and if it meant ‘shock and awe’ that’s the way it had to be, for better or worse. "

So basically its allright to target civilians in an aggressor nation?

Anyone who commits war crimes will have an excuse, will plead mitigating circumstance, blame the other party. How does one decide? Based on who the victors are?
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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby Andrew_S » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 21:07:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Andrew_S', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schweinshaxe', '
')
Was the killing of hundreds of thousands of civilians in Hamburg and Dresden in the firestorms at the end on WWII a war crime? Was the bombing of Dresden and Hamburg of any strategic importance or was it just a way to punish the German people for voting Hitler into power? Why were fire bombs and not conventional explosive bombs used?



They lied repeatedly in the British parliament about bombing policy. Question was "were they deliberately targetting civilian areas?". They said no, but it was a lie. The actual (secret) policy was to target civilians and kill as many as they could.

They lied to avoid the problems which would have arisen in Parliament and among the general populace of Britain.

Remember Churchill ordered German cities to be bombed to provoke the other side. Hitler held back from striking civilian targets for many months in the face of direct provocation. At the beginning of the war he wanted an agreement on not deliberately bombing civilians. The Allied Powers declined to make such an agreement.


Not quite.

Would you care to point out any false statements in my post? If not keep you rhetorical "not quite".
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', '
')The Dresden and Hamburg bombings were in response to the Blitz in England, when 1 million houses were destroyed and 43,000 people were killed. They’re still digging up bombs today.


Churchill ordered German cities bombed precisely in order to provoke the bombing of London. Hitler held back for months. Have you ever read impartial histories or only the one-sided stuff from the Allied side? Churchill at times was aggrieved that they had not attacked any civilian targets. He was waiting and bombing, and waiting and bombing for months.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', '
')<personal emotional stuff omitted>
But enough of the personal stuff: In answer to the question was the bombing of Dresden, Hamburg and the Japanese cities a war crime, in the circumstances no. The madness had to stop somehow, and if it meant ‘shock and awe’ that’s the way it had to be, for better or worse.

‘It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required.’
Sir Winston Churchill

War is an extreme form of politics. Dresden was for political reasons. It didn't help end the war any quicker. German sources say if they'd done another 3 or 4 Dresdens it may have ended a little quicker but it was soon to be over anyway. It was done to impress Stalin and show some clout from the British (the half in the big two-and-a-half, as I think Churchill described them).

Nagasaki and Hiroshima were, I believe, done as a practical demonstration that the Americans had the Bomb: for the Soviets and anybody else who might care to know. Japan was already exploring ways to surrender via the Vatican.
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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby Andrew_S » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 21:30:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'T')his thread seems to be deviating, but nevertheless I want to bring up a few points.

Actually there was a secret clause in the Anglo-Polish treaty of March 1939 that the country implied in the term 'threatning polish sovereignity' would be Germany and not the Soviet Union. Think the allies understood very the geopoltical catastrophe that would ensue in declaring war both on Germany and the Soviet Union. Nevertheless that did not prevent them from examining the possibility of sending an expeditionary force to Finland after the Soviet invasion.

So the Soviet part of the partition was okay? But not the German? Very altruistic.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', '
')
My list was essentially a list of nations nuetral that Germany invaded with no provocation. France was not a nuetral.

Okay.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', '
')While one can argue military necessity (I am not convinced though that the allies were on the point of invading Norway) in does show that Germany was a brutal aggressor and had little respect for the sovereignity of nuetral states or the international order and law or whatever form of it existed before WW II.

It's well documented historical fact. In fact when the British tried a counter invasion (which was an utter disaster) a British officer was captured with the complete "old" plans. It took the Germans a couple of days to realize what a propoganda coup they had landed (Brits were about to invade neutral Norway *simultaneously*).

The facts show that it was chance and a matter of mere hours that Britain didn't invade neutral Norway first (troop ships already at sea actually turned round and went back to port in Scotland to disembark the troops). So much for respect for sovereignty. If they had done that successfully they may well have gone all the way and taken the iron-ore mines in northern Sweden. Unfortunately for Churchill the Finnish Winter War had ended: originally they wanted that as the pretext for occupying parts of northern Sweden (to supply the Finns, ya know). In the last hours of the Finnish Winter War the French and British were pleading desperately with the Finns that they keep fighting, if only for a few days more.

Fascinating stuff is real history.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', '
')The point is while history was written by the victors one does not need Western propaganda to see which was the guilty party in WW II.


Do you honestly believe it's a matter of good guys versus bad guys? If so the Western propoganda probably was necessary.

If you care to look, detailed, factual, impartial reporting of the history does exist.
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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby Wildwell » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 21:46:01

And I suppose the Holocaust never happened either?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

Of course civilians aren’t ‘fair game’ in any circumstances, but on all sides they were targeted - Partly for political reasons, partly because of the type of weapons being used. As for Japan: Well they were such nice people weren’t they? Mass killings, rapes, murder, cannibalism, biological experiments where they killed half a million Chinese. Ready to surrender? You must be joking. The war would have gone on much, much longer.
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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby Andrew_S » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 21:56:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', 'A')nd I suppose the Holocaust never happened either?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

You failed to address the question. Presumably, you can find no false statement in my post but rhetorically deviate to other matters.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', '
')Of course civilians aren’t ‘fair game’ in any circumstances, but on all sides they were targeted - Partly for political reasons, partly because of the type of weapons being used. As for Japan: Well they were such nice people weren’t they? Mass killings, rapes, murder, cannibalism, biological experiments where they killed half a million Chinese. Ready to surrender? You must be joking. The war would have gone on much, much longer.


You're not cut out for serious historical study. You seethe with emotion. No good.

Did I say the Japanese were nice? Not an area I've studied carefully but the Japs may well have surrendered fairly quickly anyway. That is not widely stated in the West because it doesn't fit the "justification".

How many German civilians were killed by the Allies during the war?

Another good question, how many civilian or non-combatant (=POWS) Germans were killed *after* the war?

Real history is really fascinating. You should try to approach it without emotion or you get nowhere. (Oh, I'm not sure of the numbers in answer to my two questions above. Just food for thought).
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Re: Dresden, Hamburg bombings. War crime?

Postby Andrew_S » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 21:59:57

I forgot to mention. In controvertial political matters wikipedia most certainly is *no* authority.

Just a friendly tip.
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