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Relativity Dogma & Truth

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Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby Aaron » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 12:42:51

Relativity - The doctrine that measurements and perceptions are true
only in relation to a given observer at a given place and
time.

Dogma - A generally held set of formulated beliefs.

Truth - The actual state of things.

"If you own a hammer... every problem looks like a nail."
So what?

Of course reality is objective; That is a trite truism.

What am I supposed to do about the things I don't know I'm not aware of?

Magically become aware of them somehow?

Of course not...

But our relative perceptions of truth, and the expression of these beliefs as dogma in our lives, have an insidious and dangerous potential to pigeon-hole our critical thinking in subtle ways. It is this conundrum which is at the root of our struggle to make good choices.

What you are doing today, is most likely what you will be doing tomorrow.
Our default positions, developed through our lives, describe a set of assumptions about ourselves & our world. We coalesce meaning from the vapor of nuance, deriving a set of values based on our experiences. Absent new information, we assume our core values to be correct; that is to say consistent with objective reality.

But the very nature of objective reality itself implies that all our acknowledged truths, are subject to the vagaries of perception.

As with the story of the 3 blind men & the elephant, each will perceive a different aspect of the same larger reality, glimpsing only this small fraction of truth upon which their own objective reality is based.

And this is precisely the problem.

It is the common assumptions we make, which blind us to the bigger picture.

We are all slaves to our own version of truth, held captive in a prison we can neither see, nor feel...

The worst part of this captivity, is that it replicates itself, and grows stronger over time. We hijack those elements which fit our existing worldview, further entrenching & hardening our positions.

Everyone who can read this blog, is firmly entrenched in the western values & dogma, which tells you that we can overcome the terrible challenges of life on Earth. We have all but conquered hunger, disease & illness, slavery, poverty... the list is almost endless.

But this is only an illusion of our relative perception of truth.

The larger reality says that in spite of, (or perhaps even because of), modern agriculture more starve today than ever before. The highest standard of living ever known to man, is accompanied by unprecedented poverty in never before seen numbers. Unparalleled advances in energy efficiency have propelled our consumption of energy to unseen heights.

The freedom our ancestors provided for us through great sacrifice does not make you free.

Freedom is something you do... not something you have.

The truth is that none of these"modern advances" we cherish have delivered on their promises of a better tomorrow.

Instead, they have ushered in an era of unprecedented poverty, misery, suffering and death which shows no sign of retreating.

The problem dear Brutus, lies not within our stars... but within ourselves.
The punchline here is that actual reality does not respect our dogmatic beliefs... or even know of such nonsense.

As the impoverished, huddled masses are discovering as I write this...

Coming soon to a theater near you.
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby bobcousins » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 13:32:54

I didn't understand what you are trying to get at with that the first time you posted it. Perhaps it is the elliptical way you argue things. You always put in lots of gaps, I assume those are for the reader to insert the missing explanatory text.

It all appears to be a fancy way of saying "I know the Truth, and you don't".
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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby Raxozanne » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 13:49:30

The way we look at the world is narrow, skewered and biased due to our assumptions, expectations and experiences.

Say for example you were a being that used photosynthesis to make energy to fuel your biological development and you had evolved to a high intelligence and consciousness level. If you saw other beings wandering around shoving dead animals through holes in their faces to appropriate energy you might feel a bit sick.

You can look at lots of things from different angles and be totally blind to obvious things because you are conditioned to ignore them or take them for granted (for example: the assumption that continuing growth is normal)
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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 14:51:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raxozanne', '
')If you saw other beings wandering around shoving dead animals through holes in their faces to appropriate energy you might feel a bit sick.
Aaron makes a mysterious and obscure point, but this is more interesting to me. Plants really are more noble in that they take sunlight and minerals and create life, whereas we animals stuff dead things into our tube and suck the life out of them and then shit it out the other end, truly loathsome and disgusting. I wish I were a plant. :-x :x Plus, a lot of animals not only stuff dead things into the holes in their faces, but they actually murder other living beings first and then do that disgusting, gurgling, sloshy, smelly process too. yeech.
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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby Grifter » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 15:38:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raxozanne', '
')If you saw other beings wandering around shoving dead animals through holes in their faces to appropriate energy you might feel a bit sick.
Aaron makes a mysterious and obscure point, but this is more interesting to me. Plants really are more noble in that they take sunlight and minerals and create life, whereas we animals stuff dead things into our tube and suck the life out of them and then shit it out the other end, truly loathsome and disgusting. I wish I were a plant. :-x :x Plus, a lot of animals not only stuff dead things into the holes in their faces, but they actually murder other living beings first and then do that disgusting, gurgling, sloshy, smelly process too. yeech.


The way I see it is those living beings are simply stores of light and a few minerals that we then eat, the waste should be a fertilizer after it has rotted down.

I wish I were a plant too though, a giant tree miles away from any humans. I didn't ask to be the end user.
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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby Aaron » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 17:45:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raxozanne', 'T')he way we look at the world is narrow, skewered and biased due to our assumptions, expectations and experiences.

Say for example you were a being that used photosynthesis to make energy to fuel your biological development and you had evolved to a high intelligence and consciousness level. If you saw other beings wandering around shoving dead animals through holes in their faces to appropriate energy you might feel a bit sick.

You can look at lots of things from different angles and be totally blind to obvious things because you are conditioned to ignore them or take them for granted (for example: the assumption that continuing growth is normal)


Indeed...

And yes... I know the truth & U don't :)
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby SinisterBlueCat » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 17:49:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', ' ')Plants really are more noble in that they take sunlight and minerals and create life,


and where do you think those minerals come from? not from other dead things?
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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby SinisterBlueCat » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 17:58:09

Ever read the Marriage of Heaven and Hell by William Blake?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narow chinks of his cavern.
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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 18:02:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SinisterBlueCat', '
')and where do you think those minerals come from? not from other dead things?
stardust, SBC, it's all stardust. The notion that the world is disgusting goes back a long way, at least to the gnostics of Roman times. They thought a demiurge created the world because God wouldn't do such a criminal thing.
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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby bobcousins » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 18:44:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raxozanne', 'T')he way we look at the world is narrow, skewered and biased due to our assumptions, expectations and experiences.


Well sure. But that does not mean swapping views automatically gets you closer to the truth. There are plenty of dogmatic opinions that are also correct e.g. that the planets orbit the Sun, that we all die eventually, the Houston Texans will never win the Superbowl. Dogma may or may not be true, opposing it may or may not achieve a view closer to the truth. You still need a way of determining the truth.

If you say that everyone is biased and has a relative view of the truth, you are opening Pandora's box. If you then claim to be not biased and have a 'true' view of the world, you are either claiming to be a special exception (disproving at least a general theory), or have a view that is no less relative than anyone else, and therefore possibly mistaken.

So really I can't see where this argument is going, apart from saying noone knows nuthin'.
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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby eric_b » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 19:32:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', '
')(...)
So really I can't see where this argument is going, apart from saying noone knows nuthin'.


There you have it.

Things haven't changed since Socrates said it, though as usual few people
can really grasp the enormity of not-knowing beyond a shallow intellectual
nod.
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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby Wildwell » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 19:44:51

Here we go again, the cult of Peak oil..

First up, collectively we got here through cultural values, greed, selfishness, laziness, innovation, ambition, pride, vigour and all the other human qualities. If we decide we don’t like it, collectively change it. Kick out the governments in the next vote, boycott the companies you don’t like, give the companies you do like your business. Talk about bend over and take it.

I don’t like any of this inevitable, truth shite. We collectively set the co-ordinates, if you don’t like it get off your fat asses and change it – because we do have a choice. SUV driving parents shedding a tear over their offspring being drafted have no one but themselves to blame. If you’re worried about Walmart having too much power, don’t flippin’ shop there. If you are worried about Peak Oil get yourself a sustainable lifestyle. None of this has to be violent or even revolutionary, it’s just kicking some very bad habits.
Last edited by Wildwell on Thu 06 Apr 2006, 12:08:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby eric_b » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 21:13:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', 'H')ere we go again, the cult of Peak oil..

First up, collectively we got here through cultural values, greed, selfishness, laziness, innovation, ambition, pride, vigour and all the other human qualities. If we decide we don’t like it, collectively change it. Kick out the governments in the next vote, boycott the companies you don’t like, give the companies you do like your business. Talk about bend over and take it.



YaaaaAAAaaaawn.

Thanks for that underwhelming pep-talk.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I don’t like any of this inevitable, truth shite. We collectively set the co-ordinates, (...)


'Collectively' we have about as much control over our destiny as a
dandelion seed in the wind. That should be obvious, assuming you
could get your head out of your ass.

Individual people can be intelligent, but as a whole humanity is proving
to be dumber than a box of rocks.
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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 21:25:40

Nature is not human-minded.

Lao-Tzu
In a world that is not whole, you have got to fight just to keep your soul.

-Ben Harper-
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What bigger picture?

Unread postby bochen787 » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 21:44:14

It is the common assumptions we make, which blind us to the bigger picture.

- We assume the sun will rise everyday.
One day the earth will stop rotating

- We assume solar energy is renewable
Our sun is past it's own 'peak' of 4.5 billion years

- We assume something will always remain long after all life is gone
100 trillion trillion years from now protons will decay, matter will evaporate and radiation will once again dominant the universe.

Plus, the sun will go red giant and eat up the earth, scorthing the oceans and vaporizing the atmosphere. Our galaxy is on a collision course with the Andromedia Galaxy.

From that higher bigger perspective nothing is sustainable and all is going to hell.

Assumptions are useful in the limited domain of humanity.
Like the 'assumption' that God exists, or the assumption that love is real.
Or that life should and does indeed have a meaning, purpose, destiny..

We know how everything began. Objectively at the moment of the big bang. Subjectively at our conception. We know how everything will end. Objectively when matter decays into radiation. Subjectively when our inner universe dies. What happens in between is left to us.

I like peak oil not becuase I think it has value in and of itself.
Money is never for money's own sake, neither is education, career,
status, power, or anything for that matter. We search for an illusive perfection, a balance and ideal equilibrium. We like something because its fun and I think that is the meaning of subjective life, fun, love, happiness. I think peak oil is cool for the same reason I think Titanic or Apollo 13 is cool. Its a thrill, and the fact that it is realistic (like Titanic and Apollo 13) makes it even more awesome!
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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 21:48:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'N')o one ever became suddenly depraved.


Alternatively, no one ever became suddenly depaved?
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby NEOPO » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 21:54:37

a second to see.....an eternity to believe.........

OAM.....OAM......OAM.......

I kind of enjoy it when Aaron talks about YOU GUYS like that ;-)
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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby EndDays » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 22:49:41

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God." (1 Corinthians 3:19)

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Have you ever thought about God and eternity? What will you say when you stand before our Creator after you die?

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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Wed 05 Apr 2006, 22:54:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EndDays', '[')i]"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God." (1 Corinthians 3:19)

ED
Damn straight, ED! I wonder what God thinks of Gene Pitney, since he's up there now. . .
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Re: Relativity Dogma & Truth

Unread postby Raxozanne » Thu 06 Apr 2006, 03:23:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', ' ')Well sure. But that does not mean swapping views automatically gets you closer to the truth. There are plenty of dogmatic opinions that are also correct e.g. that the planets orbit the Sun, that we all die eventually, the Houston Texans will never win the Superbowl. Dogma may or may not be true, opposing it may or may not achieve a view closer to the truth. You still need a way of determining the truth.


I suppose that most wideheld dogma or taken-for-granted assumptions are usually appropriate for the timescale of our existence, as Aaron says 'what you are doing today is most likely what you will be doing tomorrow'. It's just that things move so fast now, we are not living in the same world as our grandparents did and our grandchildren will not be living in the same world we live in so that dogma is more of a hindrance than a benefit as nothing can be counted on when things move so fast. Plus if you take a step back to view the whole of human history you can see exactly what an odd case we are in at the moment (complex global economy etc.)

Maybe you don't need to swap views but be open to all views, which would lead to greater understanding and awareness. It is problematic though because you would need to know where to draw the line as lots of people sprout preposterous stuff such as lizards are ruling the world etc. Maybe just being mindful that our opinions are likely to be biased can would help us to learn and transcend our biases for greater understanding. Of course wherever possible the truth should be sought and determined through factual evidence.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', ' ')If you say that everyone is biased and has a relative view of the truth, you are opening Pandora's box.


I do it all the time, open the box, close the box, open the box :razz:
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