[aswerfawf]

i was suprised to find that there isnt a discussion about daniel quinn and his ideas on here yet, so here it is. his book "ishmael" struck a chord with me. in many ways it was just a restatement of many things that i had already been thinking. this is something i love to find in a book, not only does it give me sense of camaradire but often the author elaborates on these ideas in ways i hadnt thought of before. for the most part this is "ishmael" for me. i have to mention that the book is often criticized (and rightly so) for being oversimplistic in its presentation and its arguments. the book is structured as a conversation between a telepathic ape and a man, the man comes off as a complete idiot. this actually makes reading the book kinda frustrating at times.

the second book in his trilogy is called "the story of b". this is a wonderful book, it actually has a story with a plot to it. a preacher named B is suspected by the roman catholic church of being the antichrist. B's lectures (in the appendix) are basically a rehash of "ishmael". if you are interested in daniel quinn's work but dont think you can stomach "ishmael" you could probably get away with skipping to this book. although if you have a hard time following them you ought to read "ishmael", myself i read both and recommend it.

basically what daniel quinn argues is that there is something deeply wrong with the world and what that thing is, is our culture. most of "ishmael" is devoted to deconstructing the basic assumptions of western civilization. he says that key to our cultureal heratige is the idea of our supremacy over nature and our exploitation of it for our own ends. in this he echos commentators on colonialism, who made much the same argument substituting natives for nature. quinn nudges you in the direction of rejecting the uniqueness of human beings in the universe as part of a plan of cultural change. this arguement become elaborated as one for the religion animism which he goes into detail in "story of b". his other big stradegy is a return to a tribal organization of society which he feel is the only form of social organization which has been selected for by natural selection, he elaborates more on details of this in his practical book "beyond civilization". the reason why he feels there is a need for a cultural change is because he feels our culture is organized in such a way which is counter to the laws of nature and therefore threatens our species with extinction.

so you can see, this might appeal to people into peakoil. but he sees the problem as much broader. one of the essence of our culture rather than a part of its structure.

his books appeal to primitivists but it is not written with that perspective in mind. in "beyond civilization" he supports those who are homeless, and praises them as those who live outside of the walls of civilization. but he himself doesnt commit himself to such a stradegy, because as his refrain goes "there is no one right way to live". quinn is a big supporter of diversity in all things which he sees this as the inherent strength of life. as i understand it, the way in which he hope to confront the homogenizing, universalizing, destroying forces of our culture is through a stradegy of diversifying the way in which we make a living through the individual effort of enacting cultural change. but if we fail and humans become extinct, life will go on.

[TheTurtle]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aswerfawf', 'i') was suprised to find that there isnt a discussion about daniel quinn and his ideas on here yet, so here it is.

[satjeet]

This argument about a transcendent god leaves me agast. I've talked about it before on this forum only to have my comments yanked by the moderators. (And they were non-scatological, non-pornographic, even vaguely enlightened comments - it's just if I say boo to people who believe in a transcendent deity, then I'm not printable. BLEH! )

Read Spinoza for God's sake! (Ha, ha, ha ) Read Stuart Hampshire on Spinoza. Spinoza famously in rebuke to Descartes used the expression "Deus sive Natura" to refer to - well, whatever. Heinlein in a forgotten sci-fi short translated this as "God is indistinguishable from Nature". I mean this is 300 years later. We know what's going on - Descartes and all those Theists and Deists and whatever are simply incoherent in their notions. WE ARE PART OF NATURE. THERE IS NO GETTING AROUND IT.

[Novus]

I was wondering when someone would bring up Daniel Quinn. Quinn has some really good ideas but they are disorganized and poorly explained in his books. There are some dissertations out there writen on Tribalism and mother culture that that are much better organized than Quinn's work. The only exception is Quinn's Ten rules of nuture. That section of the book is well writen and if you read the passage on the ten rules of nature that is all you really need to read.

[azreal60]

I've been quoting Quinn for ages now. He is the reason i am at this site, because i became interested in sustainability and my next step took me to the Midwest Renewable Energy Association. At the anual MREA fair in Custer wisconsin, guess who the final days speaker was? That's right, Richard Heinburg. And then on to here.

I would say The turtles post on how to use the Ishmael trio is right on the money. Although i would say Ishmael is very useful for the baby boomer generation, as it speaks to them alot more than the other two. I love My Ishmael i think the best of the tree simply because it was better than Ishmael and goes towards a generation i think always needing to be reached, the children.

[PhebaAndThePilgrim]

Hi: Daniel Quinn's books opened my mind and changed my life.
Unfortunately, his writing flies in the face of basic Christian theology. I once suggested the book to a small town reading club I belong to.
The head of the club read the book and said it was the worst book she had ever read and she would never suggest it to our group.
I have since come to realize how revolutionary Quinn's writing is.
I totally agree with him on most things, especially his take on the real reason we have advanced education in the U.S., namely high school.
I have two critiques of Quinn's writings.
First, if you have read one book, the rest of them kind of feel like reading the same book again.
Second, he gives us reasons for our dilemna, but offers no solutions. Even Quinn realizes that it is not possible for us to return to tribalism.
Ironically, if peak oil unfolds the way Kunstler imagines it, we will be returning to forms of tribalism.
Pheba

[TheTurtle]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phebagirl', ' ')
Unfortunately, his writing flies in the face of basic Christian theology.

[aswerfawf]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phebagirl', 'S')econd, he gives us reasons for our dilemna, but offers no solutions. Even Quinn realizes that it is not possible for us to return to tribalism.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phebagirl', 'U')nfortunately, his writing flies in the face of basic Christian theology.