[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pilferage', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('coyote', 'O')kay, I see your viewpoint now. Yes it's true, if you don't mind hazardous emissions then standard diesels will do just about as well as hybrids. I have a friend with a diesel Volvo, and when I told her how well I do with the Prius she said, "Is that all?" The Pruis gets good mileage while still being a near zero-emissions vehicle.

'Course, if we really want the best of both worlds, then we could be those guys who put recycled veggie oil into their old diesel vehicles.

[pilferage]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('coyote', 'H')ow does what I said differ from what you said?

[PeakOiler]

I own a hybrid Honda Insight, and I'll respond to the seven worries from my own experience with the car since I bought it in July, 2003.
W1: "Worry: Hybrids have complicated technology that is difficult or expensive to fix."
I have only taken the car to the dealer for routine maintenance up to this point, i.e tire rotation and oil changes. I did replace the small 12V battery myself when it failed about 3 months ago, (not the main 140 V battery--no way would I touch that. Besides, there's a big warning not to open the cover to the battery bank: "No user servicable parts." and "Warning! High voltage. Electrical shock can cause death" ... or something to that effect.)

W2: "Worry: Hybrids have limited battery pack life."
So far I've had no problems with the battery bank. I will reach the 80K miles mark before the 8 year warranty expires. I'll keep ya posted if and when I have to service the main battery or other electrical components.

W3: "Worry: Hybrids have technical problems like stalling and sputtering"
Never had that problem with the Insight.

W4: "Worry: Hybrids do not pay for themselves to justify their premium cost".
All I can say is that it has saved me over $5000 in gasoline vs. my other vehicle, an F-150, since it gets three times better gas mileage than the truck. If I had bought a different small car, say a Geo Metro, I would have still saved a lot of gas money, but not over 5 grand.

W5: "Worry: Hybrids do not offer the driving performance needed".
The purpose of a hybrid is to conserve fuel. One should not expect the performance of a sports car.

W6: "Worry: Hybrids will not hold resale value."
I'm not planning on selling it. If the PO doomers are right, this may be the last car I buy.

W7: "Worry: Hybrids do not get the level of mileage promised".

Yeah right. Perhaps that's true with the other hybrids, but not the Insight. I'm actually getting about 1 mpg better than the EPA estimate of 56 mpg with the auto transmission!

[PrairieMule]

Honda is about all I'll buy these days. Tougher than cockroaches. I have a 91 Ranger I take to the ranch but commute in my Accord. Just went to the Honda website. I don't think I'll go hybrid, just downsize to a civic. The Civic DX w/5speed stickers at $14,360 that gets 30/40mph compared to a Hybrid Civic at $21,850 that gets maybe a extra 10 mpg more? $6,490 saved instead of financed over 60 mo at 3% will buy a lot of gas, grocieries, or gunpowder for a po bust. 1.8LVtec 135hp is peppier than the hybrid.

Not trying to be a wet blanket, Honda is tops. Glad to see your hybrid is running smooth, it is a honda.

[The_Virginian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PeakOiler', 'W')4: "Worry: Hybrids do not pay for themselves to justify their premium cost".
All I can say is that it has saved me over $5000 in gasoline vs. my other vehicle, an F-150, since it gets three times better gas mileage than the truck. If I had bought a different small car, say a Geo Metro, I would have still saved a lot of gas money, but not over 5 grand.

[PeakOiler]

btw, here's the link to the article Leanan posted:
Article

Today I looked up the Kelly Blue Book Suggested Retail Value of the Insight and it was $13,705. My car loan is about $9,900.

[UIUCstudent01]

Chicago Tribune

I'm not sure, but I think this article is going to be put under a subscriber wall.

This is the bulk of the article. The rest is mostly playful banter because reading off statistics isn't very attention getting.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat's the finding of a new analysis by CNW Marketing Research Inc., which calculated the cost of energy--natural gas and coal, but primarily electricity--that it takes to produce each part and component of a vehicle as well as the energy it takes to assemble the pieces into the final vehicle.

CNW came up with an Energy Index for producing each of the more than 300 models sold in the U.S.

It found the Maybach, DaimlerChrysler's ultralux brand, required the most energy to produce, more than 500 percent of the industry average.

And the most energy efficient is the Scion xB wagon, which requires only 20 percent of the industry average to manufacture.

So the worst isn't an SUV, and the best isn't a hybrid.

The study also found that the energy to produce that hybrid is 30 percent greater than the industry average to produce any vehicle.

Specifically, the Accord hybrid needs 144 percent more energy to produce than the industry average, Prius 142 percent more and the Civic hybrid 141 percent more.

But the Suburban and Yukon took 137 percent, Expedition 134 percent, Hummer H2 132 percent, Tahoe 128 percent, Escalade 120 percent and Navigator 114 percent.

And hybrids even top their gasoline-only counterparts in energy use.

The Accord, for example, requires 95 percent more energy to produce than the average vehicle while the Accord hybrid requires 144 percent, or nearly 50 percent more than the gas version.

The reason is that it takes a lot of energy to produce the electric systems for hybrids as well as exotic lightweight glass, aluminum and steel that goes into them.

Hybrid tires also require special compounds for better rolling resistance to increase mileage, said Art Spinella, general manager of CNW.

The study also said that the robots brought in to replace humans to cut costs, "cost more in power consumption, the electricity to run them," Spinella said.

[dub_scratch]

Great article. Nice find and thanx for posting it.

I don't think it is true that cars use as much energy to manufacture as they do in running during their lifetime. I don't know of any solid research behind such a claim. But I do suspect the figure is high.

But anyway, this is just another nail in the coffin for the auto efficiency myth. Fact of the matter is that there is no auto fleet replacement scheme that is in the cards once oil decline sets in. When I know for sure that oil has indeed peaked I will look out my window and see the last of our auto fleet.

[Ludi]

Hybrids are overly hyped at this point in time. Many conventional cars get much better mileage than hybrids.

"Ooooh! It's a HYBRID! *gasp!*"

"Uh, it's a standard drive diesel - *shrug*"

[Andy]

Great comment Ludi. The simple, pariah status diesel in real world US conditions on average destroys hybrids in mileage. Hybrids only gain in heavy, congested urban driving. For the rest of situations, the standard transmission diesel wins hands down.

[grillzilla]

I just bought a Honda Insight hybrid. I acutually get 55 to 60 mpg, and it's an automatic.
That said, the MOST IMPORTANT fuel saving device on the car is the Fuel Consuption Display. It tells you instantly when you are driving inefficiently.

Frankly it turns you into a mpg geek, so when you see one of these little cars driving slow it's not because the car is powerless, the driver is just mesmerized by the FCD.

I really believe that if all cars had these displays fleet milage would go up over night.

[dub_scratch]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('grillzilla', '
')I really believe that if all cars had these displays fleet milage would go up over night.

[strider3700]

Ok I'd have considered the accord a pretty average car but it's 95% more. Any word on what car comes closest to the average?

[Frank]

I'd be curious to find out who funds CNW Marketing Research Inc. !!

Diesel cars can do very well but don't forget that diesel contains about 25% more energy/gallon than gasoline and still has pollution issues. The low-sulfur version will be much better.

Hybrids like the Prius that shut down when stopped will always be better in city situations IMO because of pollution issues. Don't forget the Prius et al are ultra-low emissions vehicles (SULEV?). That's important too in the overall scheme of things.

[WisJim]

My recollection is that the hybrids such as the Prius and Insight were originally promoted as producing less greenhouse gases, and the higher mileage was a bonus. Still I'm a bit disgusted that you can no longer buy a small car that is rated at 45 to 55mpg like you could in the early 1990s.
The answer to higher energy used in manufacturing the cars is to keep the car longer, perhaps. I generally don't buy a car until it is about 10 years old, and I am worrying about what is going to be on the used car market in a few years when I need to replace our 1992 Geo Prizm or the old Civic CRX HF. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/5263.shtml

For a gauge that gives you more information about what your car is doing as you drive, including mpg at the moment, check out the Scangauge for about $130.
http://www.scangauge.com/
Too bad it only works on most cars 1996 or newer.

[pilferage]

WisJim, do you really see 52mpg combined? Or is that just highway? I've heard people will see 40mpg from the older crx hf's, but 50+mpg...

[PeakOiler]

Sounds to me like the article is using a lot of "hand waving" to make their case.

I'd like to see the numbers that compares, say, a truck that is equipped with A/C, power steering, power locks, power windows, power mirrors, seat warmers, auto trans, and other "bells and whistles" to the same model without all the "bells and whistles".

[WisJim]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pilferage', 'W')isJim, do you really see 52mpg combined? Or is that just highway? I've heard people will see 40mpg from the older crx hf's, but 50+mpg...

[pilferage]

You should try all sythetic gear/engine oil, which really makes a difference compared to dino oil when it gets colder. You could also get these tires which are the cheapest low rolling resistence tires I've found so far. Aside from that, aerodynamic modifications could help, but that's getting a bit "out there" for some people.

[Frank]

Pilferage, can I ask how you know that Sumitomo's are low rolling resistance?

TIA