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CNN's "Welcome to the Future"

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Re: CNN's "Welcome to the Future"

Unread postby ThunderChunky » Mon 27 Mar 2006, 17:31:38

I'll make this simple. How can our approach be wrong if human lifespan is longer than it has ever been in the history of man kind?
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Re: CNN's "Welcome to the Future"

Unread postby Ingenuity_Gap » Mon 27 Mar 2006, 20:24:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ThunderChunky', 'I')'ll make this simple. How can our approach be wrong if human lifespan is longer than it has ever been in the history of man kind?


Evrika, Faustus! Let's sell our souls to the angel of destruction so we can live more, regardless of what our life and our children's lives may look like in the future. For short term benefits we'll strip mine our planet (and probably other planets if we could) until the end of times. To have a longer lifespan. What a noble thought.

Let's continue to party. There's nothing wrong with our approach.

It's not our fault that the climate is changing. It's the normal weather patterns. There always were and always will be climate changes. Why worry? We have a longer lifespan.

It's not our fault that we are witnessing probably one of the worst of the fauna and flora extinctions. It's the normal evolution of things. There always were and always will be extinctions. Why worry? We have a longer lifespan.

It's not our fault that we are polluting the environment, rendering useless entire ecosystems. Why worry? We have a longer lifespan.

It's not our fault that we are depleting resources like crazy. Oil, water, forests, fisheries, land are infinite and we can afford to play with our future, a future in which we'll hopefully have an even longer lifespan.

Always blame somebody/something else. Never take responsibility. Never admit culpability. Never stop demanding more, faster and cheaper. Never ask: what is the real price we pay for living longer, moving faster, consuming more and more.

Let's forget we destroyed our environment, depleted our resources and changed the climate. We managed to increase our lifespan. Victory!

You see nothing wrong with our approach? May technology help you!
"The world is becoming too complex and too fast-paced to manage." - Thomas Homer-Dixon
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Re: CNN's "Welcome to the Future"

Unread postby ThunderChunky » Mon 27 Mar 2006, 22:02:15

I see nothing wrong with taking the approach that puts quality of human life (long term included) at the top if its priorities.
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Re: CNN's "Welcome to the Future"

Unread postby TheTurtle » Mon 27 Mar 2006, 22:19:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ThunderChunky', 'I') see nothing wrong with taking the approach that puts quality of human life (long term included) at the top if its priorities.


Quality of human life at the expense of quality of life for all other living things is merely illusory quality.

And doomed to be short-lived. :cry:
“Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.” (Ted Perry)
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Re: CNN's "Welcome to the Future"

Unread postby ThunderChunky » Mon 27 Mar 2006, 22:23:48

How did you reach that conclusion Turtle?
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Re: CNN's

Unread postby rogerhb » Mon 27 Mar 2006, 22:23:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ThunderChunky', 'I')'ll make this simple. How can our approach be wrong if human lifespan is longer than it has ever been in the history of man kind?
Because that is simple childlike logic. A is good, therefore more A is better and much more A is fantastic.

I have nothing against individuals living longer, the problem is when everyone tries to do it without cutting down the birthrate. We can have lots of long living people, but not all at the same time.
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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Re: CNN's

Unread postby ThunderChunky » Mon 27 Mar 2006, 23:22:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'B')ecause that is simple childlike logic. A is good, therefore more A is better and much more A is fantastic. --snip-- We can have lots of long living people, but not all at the same time.
The western nations have reduced birth rate to sustainable levels. Incidently, they are the ones benefiting from many life extending technologies.
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Re: CNN's "Welcome to the Future"

Unread postby Ingenuity_Gap » Mon 27 Mar 2006, 23:28:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ThunderChunky', 'I') see nothing wrong with taking the approach that puts quality of human life (long term included) at the top if its priorities.


Me neither. May we all live long and prosperous!

Now, when we start analysing what quality of human life means, we may run into endless debates. My idea of a good quality life may be very different than yours.

And when we start putting the quality of human life at the top of our priorities, regardless of consequences, we may run into endless problems.

Open your eyes and look around you. Do you really feel we are succeeding in making a better life for us and our children?

I surely don't (increased lifespan or not).

What I see is a sick planet, getting sicker and more poluted and depleted every day. We are jeopardizing our future and the future of our children by pursuing the noble goal of putting the quality of human life at the top of our priorities, with little or no respect for what surrounds us.

When you cut the branch you're sitting on, there's little hope of not falling, even if you wish the best for you and your branch mates.

As somebody way smarter than you and me once said:

"The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place"

Technology is not the answer to our problems.

P.S. To spare you calling me a ludite or a technology adversary, I must tell you that I am a computer programmer with deep roots in science and technology. As silly as it sounds, I still dream of a Star Trek future.

What I'm not is blind and gullible enough to think that we are on the right track.
"The world is becoming too complex and too fast-paced to manage." - Thomas Homer-Dixon
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Re: CNN's "Welcome to the Future"

Unread postby TheTurtle » Tue 28 Mar 2006, 17:29:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ThunderChunky', 'H')ow did you reach that conclusion Turtle?


How is it that you did not, ThunderChunky?
“Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.” (Ted Perry)
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Re: CNN's "Welcome to the Future"

Unread postby threadbear » Tue 28 Mar 2006, 18:27:22

About tech--"We CAN have our cake and eat it too" -Thunderchunky.

Partial ingrediant list for Macdonad's buns, (classed as cakes, due to sugar content):

--mono- and diglycerides, diacetyl tartaric acid esters of fatty acids, ethanol, sorbitol, polysorbate 20, potassium propionate), sodium stearoyl lactylate, dough conditioner (corn starch, ammonium chloride, ammonium sulfate, calcium peroxide, ascorbic acid, azodicarbonamide, enzymes), calcium propionate (preservative).

That's the problem, we're eating it too.
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Re: CNN's

Unread postby turtleT » Tue 28 Mar 2006, 19:07:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'ll make this simple. How can our approach be wrong if human lifespan is longer than it has ever been in the history of man kind?
ThunderChunky, What will you do with the extra time on Earth? Watch more TV? Get a new IPOD? Seriously, do you really think our quality of life is any better today than prior to the industrial revolution? Have you been in a nursing home recently? Boy, I can't wait to spend my last 10 years watching TV 8 hours a day, having someone change my diaper, taking 10 pills every morning, being senile as a bat. No offense to bats.

You see, the human body evolved at a time when things were very different. We weren't expected to live more than 30 or 40 years. Thus our organs evolved to last this long, but there was no need to last longer. Now that, through the miracles of modern medicine, we can keep people alive much longer, we run into difficult issues such as heart disease, kidney failure, cancer, neurological disorders, etc. Fun stuff. Stuff that affects quality of life. Living longer doesn't mean living better. My grandmother essentially stopped living 15 years ago but she's still alive. That's an anecdotal example, I know, but I'm also in the medical field. I see the results of first world medicine everyday. From that experience, I don't think we are any better off with all our so-called advances. All I see is a culture (western) that is out of touch with death. We deny death, forget that it is an integral part of life, sweep it under the rug. To us, death is the worst of all things. Believe me, it's not.
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Re: CNN's "Welcome to the Future"

Unread postby Ghog » Tue 28 Mar 2006, 19:11:27

Can technology keep up with evolution and nature in the plight to keep extending life?
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Re: CNN's "Welcome to the Future"

Unread postby TheTurtle » Tue 28 Mar 2006, 19:13:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('turtleT', ' ') All I see is a culture (western) that is out of touch with death. We deny death, forget that it is an integral part of life, sweep it under the rug. To us, death is the worst of all things. Believe me, it's not.


Hey T! Long time no see. Welcome back, fellow turtle. :-D

I suspect many of us have anecdotal stories which taken together conclusively prove your point. In my own case, it's a mother-in-law with severe Alzheimers. There are indeed things worse than death. :cry:
“Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.” (Ted Perry)
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Re: CNN's

Unread postby ThunderChunky » Tue 28 Mar 2006, 20:20:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheTurtle', 'H')ow is it that you did not, ThunderChunky?
I based my conclusion on data and results, I'll leave it vague like that since you don't seem to actually want a conversation.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'A')bout tech--"We CAN have our cake and eat it too" -snip-- That's the problem, we're eating it too.
Last I heard we still had the freedom not to eat McDonalds. I sure don't, i don't eat anything with transfat either, and I find it apalling that it is still used in foods. BUT now that people are aware of the problem of trans fats it is being removed from many food items. How you want to live your life is up to you, especially regarding diet, exercise and health.
My point is technology will help us optimize our diets to give us the MAXIMUM health benefits, if we choose.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('turtleT', '<')/div>I'll make this simple. How can our approach be wrong if human lifespan is longer than it has ever been in the history of man kind? $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
') ThunderChunky,What will you do with the extra time on Earth? Watch more TV? Get a new IPOD? Seriously, --snip-- To us, death is the worst of all things. Believe me, it's not.
With the extra time I plan on doing whatever I want, whatever I enjoy. Learning, traveling, watching TV, whatever you want to do. Now, I do think the quality of life is better than preindustrial revolution where 1/3 of our children died (ball park figure feel free to correct me with stats) before adulthood. We now have better houses, more freedom, better food (and some worse food as mentioned, but we have better food if we choose to eat it).

With diet, excerise, and many life extending technology we actually extend the HEALTHY period of ones life, not the sick period at the end. Have you met a 60-70 year old that has actually taken care of their body? People with degenerative diseases or cancer are now living longer and with higher quality than 10 or 20 years ago.

Now you are right that in many cases technology simply do prolong people at the end, and that is sad. I am for assisted suicide because I know that there are worse things than death. We agree on that.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ghog', 'C')an technology keep up with evolution and nature in the plight to keep extending life?
Can technology keep up with evolution? Of course, technology itself is an evolutionary process and advances MUCH faster than evolution via natural selection. Can technology keep up with nature? Maybe. Maybe we can offset global warming by removing CO2 from the atmosphere, maybe we can adapt to the climate changes, and maybe we can escape the worst case scenario of peakoil. Or maybe not. Maybe we'll have to stop over fishing, stop dumping CO2 into the air, stop growing our population. But its technology that will provide a clean energy source, sustainable food, and a means to curb population growth. Since that first caveman picked up a stone several million years ago and the light bulb went off in his head, there has been no turning back.
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Re: CNN's "Welcome to the Future"

Unread postby Ingenuity_Gap » Wed 29 Mar 2006, 12:58:12

TC, no answer to my question?

I'll repeat it:

"Open your eyes and look around you. Do you really feel we are succeeding in making a better life for us and our children?"

Before you answer, please REALLY open your eyes.
"The world is becoming too complex and too fast-paced to manage." - Thomas Homer-Dixon
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Re: CNN's "Welcome to the Future"

Unread postby Ghog » Wed 29 Mar 2006, 13:27:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')an technology keep up with evolution? Of course, technology itself is an evolutionary process and advances MUCH faster than evolution via natural selection. Can technology keep up with nature? Maybe. Maybe we can offset global warming by removing CO2 from the atmosphere, maybe we can adapt to the climate changes, and maybe we can escape the worst case scenario of peakoil. Or maybe not. Maybe we'll have to stop over fishing, stop dumping CO2 into the air, stop growing our population. But its technology that will provide a clean energy source, sustainable food, and a means to curb population growth. Since that first caveman picked up a stone several million years ago and the light bulb went off in his head, there has been no turning back.


I am hearing alot of "maybe" which doesn't make me feel very secure. Technology has been generally unable to keep up with Nature. We have examples of this ranging from Medical to Environmental. In some cases technology has actually had a negative impact on the world. We didn't need a clean energy source, we already had it. Technology changed what we used for energy and with a finite source at that. It could have been used to help us in improving this renewable source, but human nature and greed became involved.

We didn't need a sustainable food source, we already had it. Technology has destroyed much of the land from which we received our food. Technology could have made it easier or more efficient, but instead just continues to destroy.

And to deny that technology has been the major factor in population growth would be wrong.

The real maybe is whether humans (some more than others) can change their destructive ways. It could be with or without technology at this point, but since so few are doing anything, why would we expect things to change? It is ironic to the people that care how we are going back to 'the old way' of doing things. Ways we thought we had improved on with our superior technology. Technology cannot make up for human nature.
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Re: CNN's "Welcome to the Future"

Unread postby mjpete » Wed 29 Mar 2006, 14:16:22

For those who don't hink extending the lifespan has made it better, get a clue. At the begining of the 20th century a child born in the US had about a 30% chance of dieing before turnign 18. I don't know what it is now, but somewhere below 1% I bet. Maybe this is no big deal if you don't have kids, but I believe any parent would say all this modern medicine has made life much better.
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Re: CNN's "Welcome to the Future"

Unread postby TheTurtle » Wed 29 Mar 2006, 14:22:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mjpete', 'F')or those who don't hink extending the lifespan has made it better, get a clue.


TurtleT just gave us all a clue, but you obviously didn't get it. :(
“Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.” (Ted Perry)
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Re: CNN's

Unread postby Ghog » Wed 29 Mar 2006, 14:55:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheTurtle', 'T')urtleT just gave us all a clue, but you obviously didn't get it. :(
Someone would be well served to watch this: (Thanks KevO) link
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Re: CNN's

Unread postby TheTurtle » Wed 29 Mar 2006, 21:38:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ghog', 'S')omeone would be well served to watch this: (Thanks KevO) link
Excellent! Believe it or not, I've never seen End of Suburbia before, so I liked this excerpt.

Extended Life spans are in the column of things we think are good, but are actually destroying us. It becomes very clear when presented so astutely. Yet another clue for mjpete. Thanks, Ghog! :)
“Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.” (Ted Perry)
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