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Snuff Out Those Cigarettes in Calabasas

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Government Smoking Bans

A reasonable precaution
7
No votes
A violation of individual freedom
19
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Unsure
1
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Total votes : 27

What right do smokers have to blow that crap

Unread postby Lokutus » Wed 22 Mar 2006, 01:23:54

...into my lungs?

Serious question.

These people have a death wish. That's the real reason they puff on cancersticks. So what gives them the right to blow that crap into my face in public places?
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Re: What right do smokers have to blow that crap

Unread postby dissimulo » Wed 22 Mar 2006, 01:58:06

Bored and looking to stir up a bit of controversy, eh?
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Re: What right do smokers have to blow that crap

Unread postby 0mar » Wed 22 Mar 2006, 04:59:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lokutus', '.')..into my lungs?

Serious question.

These people have a death wish. That's the real reason they puff on cancersticks. So what gives them the right to blow that crap into my face in public places?


They aren't blowing it in your lungs anymore than a truck is piping exhaust into your lungs. FWIW, the auto exhaust out of most cars is as deadly as 2nd hand smoke. Unless a person is giving you mouth to mouth after puffing on a cigar or cigarette, you have very little to fear from 2nd hand smoke.

And smoking is very relaxing. It tastes and smells good (cigars do at least). Plus, despite what politicans say, smoking is damn cool.
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Re: What right do smokers have to blow that crap

Unread postby Aaron » Wed 22 Mar 2006, 06:33:31

I can't find a credible study that links second-hand smoke to anything...

Anybody know of such?
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: Snuff Out Those Cigarettes in Calabasas

Unread postby Aaron » Wed 22 Mar 2006, 06:39:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'y')eah aaron but I don't have to breath your pie or smoke your presents :x


What choice did you have when I jacked up your insurance premiums?

Or over-spent on X-Mas?

Or took you to see "BrokeBack Mountain Boys Club?

Ok, If we are on BrokeBack Mountain inside a tiny closet... then yes... I'm pumping you full of... smoke.

But outside?

Please...
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: What right do smokers have to blow that crap

Unread postby Specop_007 » Wed 22 Mar 2006, 10:32:42

My advice to you Lokutus is to not make out with your boyfriend while hes smoking. Wait until hes done with his cigarette first.
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Re: What right do smokers have to blow that crap

Unread postby seldom_seen » Wed 22 Mar 2006, 11:04:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('0mar', 'T')hey aren't blowing it in your lungs anymore than a truck is piping exhaust into your lungs. FWIW, the auto exhaust out of most cars is as deadly as 2nd hand smoke.

Yes, but the automobile is our temple, and oil the precious ointment that breathes life in to the sacred machine. We can't blaspheme the oil gods even though the amount of air pollution created by our auto addiction is so much exponentially greater than cigarettes that I'm not sure they make a calculator that could tabulate it.

We must, as self-righteous do gooders instead focus on meaningless and inconsequential items like outlawing cigarettes in cities like Los Angeles where auto pollution at times reaches critically dangerous levels.
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Re: Snuff Out Those Cigarettes in Calabasas

Unread postby TheTurtle » Wed 22 Mar 2006, 11:20:22

I merged Lokutus' anti-smoking thread with Aaron's anti-anti-smoking law thread, since I didn't really see the need for two "smoking sucks/no it doesn't" threads to run concurrently.

{Technically, of course, smoking DOES suck. Otherwise the smoke would never get from the cigarette down into the smoker's lungs. :P
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Re: What right do smokers have to blow that crap

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Wed 22 Mar 2006, 20:34:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'I') can't find a credible study that links second-hand smoke to anything...

Anybody know of such?


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This is a small fraction of the articles on environmental tobacco smoke that have been published since 2002.
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Re: Snuff Out Those Cigarettes in Calabasas

Unread postby pilferage » Wed 22 Mar 2006, 20:53:37

Anyone have info on the impact of automobile emissions wrt personal health? Banning smoking is OK, they can do what they like, but to do this, and then let vehicle engines, some with little to no emissions control equipment, move anywhere from ~25 to ~150 liters of combustion products individually into the air, per second? That's just stupid.
Reminds me of the public's adversity to nuclear power plants, and acceptance of coal power plants... :?

Specifically, what would you rather do in a sealed room? Spend 6 hours with a chain smoker, or 6 hours with your running vehicle? ;)
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Re: Snuff Out Those Cigarettes in Calabasas

Unread postby TheTurtle » Wed 22 Mar 2006, 21:32:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pilferage', 'S')pecifically, what would you rather do in a sealed room? Spend 6 hours with a chain smoker, or 6 hours with your running vehicle? ;)


Neither.
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Re: Snuff Out Those Cigarettes in Calabasas

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Wed 22 Mar 2006, 21:39:18

Just how thick would the smoke be in a sealed room with a lit cigarette going for six hours? I guess it depends on how big the room is, but in a small room that could be pretty damn thick. Could you see across the room?
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Re: Snuff Out Those Cigarettes in Calabasas

Unread postby basil_hayden » Thu 23 Mar 2006, 11:07:17

It is unconstitutional to ban my exit strategy.
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Re: Snuff Out Those Cigarettes in Calabasas

Unread postby Aaron » Thu 23 Mar 2006, 11:56:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is a small fraction of the articles on environmental tobacco smoke that have been published since 2002.


I have seen this type of reported results review.

But they never publish their methodologies & use terms like "stressogenic".

What I meant was, I can't find any studies that have moved beyond basic correlation techniques and interview-based studies.

The epidemiological evidence seems slim to non-existent.

Furthermore, I fail to see how any of these studies can isolate environmental conditions and genetic screening with sufficient accuracy to establish conclusively that these results are anything more than just bad science.

Unless we lock 1,000 people into a room with smoke for 20 years that is.
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: Snuff Out Those Cigarettes in Calabasas

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Thu 23 Mar 2006, 12:27:23

This is a wonderful bi-partisan nonissue, and to that extent, I heartily congratulate all those who've offered opinions. I'd like to offer my own: banning smoking in public facilities is and should definitely be illegal (you have no choice but to patron a government establishment) but everything else should be hands-off. Illogical derivation of this concept: Ban smoking in private vehicles using public roads, but only if windows are cracked or fully lowered. Embed RFID sensors on windows switches and cigarette lighters that contact local enforcing authorities when a cigarette is (presumably) lit up and transmit vehicle interior atmospheric conditions to local weather stations for further review and possible penalties. :roll:

To those that would paint this attack on smoking as an ultra-leftist microsocial engineering project, I'd like to offer up the example of the two Joes or Jacks that want to fornicate in private, but are unable to do so without the permission of those instituting puritan laws. :o
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Re: Snuff Out Those Cigarettes in Calabasas

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Thu 23 Mar 2006, 12:36:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'T')he epidemiological evidence seems slim to non-existent.


Correlation is how epidemiology works. You grab all the charts from all the SIDS cases and you go back and look at how many came from households where the parents smoked and how many came from households where the parents didn't smoke. You will find that SIDS babies are much more likely to come from parents that smoke. When it's one study...you say...hmm, interesting. Maybe there's a conection. This is not one study it's hundreds.

Cigarette smoking by parents is definative linked to SIDS, to ear infections in kids, and to worsening childhood respiratory problems. Cigarette smoking is conclusively linked to COPD(emphysema), heart attacks, peripheral vascular disease, and a variety of cancers in the smoker. I couldn't tell you without doing some looking how many of those things have been conclusively linked to second hand smoke.

If you are looking for the mechanistic studies about how nicotine interferes with the acetylcholine receptors in the infant's brain and disrupts their arousal cycle causing SIDS and all the people that are playing with how much nicotine do you have to give to a baby rabbit to reproduce SIDS, then I can post those. Those look more at the why the link exists. I thought you wanted to see evidence that there was a link.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')urthermore, I fail to see how any of these studies can isolate environmental conditions and genetic screening with sufficient accuracy to establish conclusively that these results are anything more than just bad science.

There is an old AA saying. If someone tells you that you have a tail, ignore them. What is this nonesense? Why would you have a tail? If two people tell you that you have a tail, you better look. If three people tell you that you have a tail, you better wag it.

There are hundreds of studies linking second hand smoke to a variety of illnesses. The smoking-doesn't-cause-illness theories rank right up there with creationism and alien abduction in scientific plausability. They just don't begin to hold water for anyone who isn't the CEO of Phillip Morris.

If you want to kill yourself, I figure it's your own business. We're all going to die eventually anyway. If you're the smoking parent of an asthmatic child, it really does border on child abuse.
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Re: Snuff Out Those Cigarettes in Calabasas

Unread postby Aaron » Thu 23 Mar 2006, 12:48:52

I have no problem with the idea that second hand smoke is dangerous....

per se

But I have yet to see any peer-reviewed transparent methodology to confirm this hypothesis.

Correlation is only indicative... not causative.

And that as you know, is the difference between a hypothesis & accepted theory.

It seems obvious that side-smoke would have some impact of course... but to what extent and or degree seems to remain a mystery.

There are many studies I can google which seem to draw inconclusive results from the data however.

So what's the real deal here?
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: Snuff Out Those Cigarettes in Calabasas

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Thu 23 Mar 2006, 14:37:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'B')ut I have yet to see any peer-reviewed transparent methodology to confirm this hypothesis.


I just posted links to the abstracts of 25 peer reviewed studies with transparent methodology that were published in reputable medical journals in the last 3 years. If you want all the details of the studies, you'll have to find the nearest medical library and pull the corresponding journal articles.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'C')orrelation is only indicative... not causative.

As I'm sure you're aware, causation is difficult to demonstrate in medicine. It's pretty hard to ethically justify taking 100 asthmatics, randomizing half of them to get smoke blown in their face every day for a year, and then counting the number of days that each group spends in the hospital. Pretty much the best you can do in medicine is solidly demonstrating correlation, demonstrating a clear mechanistic link, and maybe reproducing the disease in an animal model. That's all happened with second hand smoke.

We know for sure that kids who come from households with smoking parents are more likely to develop asthma. If their parents continue to smoke, the kids do worse, require more medicine, and are more likely to die. We know that many of the chemicals found in tobacco smoke can irritate the respiratory tree. Now maybe it's just all a coincidence and the same alien mind control rays that cause the adults to smoke also cause the kids to have asthma attacks, but I kinda doubt it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'T')here are many studies I can google which seem to draw inconclusive results from the data however.


Google isn't the place to look for medical research.

You want to look here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?DB=pubmed
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