[PenultimateManStanding]

I suppose we could just keep playing the game (China and Japan buy our paper and we buy their stuff) until they own everything over here in the US. Then we all get angry and nationalize everything and throw the foreigners out.

[PrairieMule]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'I') suppose we could just keep playing the game (China and Japan buy our paper and we buy their stuff) until they own everything over here in the US. Then we all get angry and nationalize everything and throw the foreigners out.

[AmericanEmpire]

Folks whats gonna happen is the government will just sell us all as slaves to the Chinese as repayment of the debt when we are forclosed on. Afterall, there won't be any money paying jobs to go to when total financial collapse hits. So people will go along with it as long as they are fed and clothed

[Agren]

I posted the following on another board, populated by quite a few libertarians and other free-market people. Also some anarcho-capitalist people. Anyway, I wanted to compare what kinds of answers I get there and here, if you care to discuss with me

-----------------------------------------

A post by Riddick and a follow up by pvn leads me to ask this, perhaps there is no consensus where I would have thought so.

I buy a knife made from steel. Who did then consume that steel, me, or the guy who made the knife?

If I buy clothes made using, among other things, oil, who consumed that oil? Me? The guy who made them? The store that I bought it from?

My answer to both those questions is that it's the end consumer who consumed all the resources needed to manufacture the good and bring it to him. If he hadn't bought it, the good would not have been produced (somewhat idealized).

Is there other ways to see it?

[rogerhb]

You could simplify the sample with food, instead of a knife think of a potato crisp. The person who dug up the potato, the person who cut it, fried it or the person who ate it?

[Specop_007]

Industrialized society consumes it. Its that simple. There isnt a you and me and him and the guy who made it, theres society.
You cannot live without consuming non renewable resources in one fashion or another. It is IMPOSSIBLE in todays society (Technically, you *could*, but it would be almost physically impossible)

[Agren]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'Y')ou could simplify the sample with food, instead of a knife think of a potato crisp. The person who dug up the potato, the person who cut it, fried it or the person who ate it?

[Agren]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'I')ndustrialized society consumes it. Its that simple. There isnt a you and me and him and the guy who made it, theres society.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Agren', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'Y')ou could simplify the sample with food, instead of a knife think of a potato crisp.

[Agren]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Agren', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'Y')ou could simplify the sample with food, instead of a knife think of a potato crisp.

[Doly]

I agree with your point of view when it comes to consumer products. If consumers didn't buy the product, the resource wouldn't be consumed. But what about products used by factories (ie machinery)? You could argue that the end consumers of the products made by that machine have consumed the resources used to build that machine. But it starts getting thinner and thinner.

[rogerhb]

Where do advertisers fit into this scheme, eg, the resources consumed to market a product that wouldn't be consumed if the product wasn't marketed.

[SinisterBlueCat]

when you eat a potato chip, which part of your body does the actual consuming.... the mouth for chewing? the throat for swallowing, or is it the stomach and the intestines? and what about the eyes for seeing the chip and the hands for actually picking the chip up?

does it really matter? a society, in fact a world of people is no different. we all consume in different ways and at different times, it is what we were meant to do.

[Agren]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'W')here do advertisers fit into this scheme, eg, the resources consumed to market a product that wouldn't be consumed if the product wasn't marketed.

[Agren]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SinisterBlueCat', 'w')hen you eat a potato chip, which part of your body does the actual consuming.... the mouth for chewing? the throat for swallowing, or is it the stomach and the intestines? and what about the eyes for seeing the chip and the hands for actually picking the chip up?

does it really matter? a society, in fact a world of people is no different. we all consume in different ways and at different times, it is what we were meant to do.

[SinisterBlueCat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Agren', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SinisterBlueCat', 'w')hen you eat a potato chip, which part of your body does the actual consuming.... the mouth for chewing? the throat for swallowing, or is it the stomach and the intestines? and what about the eyes for seeing the chip and the hands for actually picking the chip up?

does it really matter? a society, in fact a world of people is no different. we all consume in different ways and at different times, it is what we were meant to do.

[Agren]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SinisterBlueCat', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Agren', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SinisterBlueCat', '
')
is everyone in sweden as rude as you?

besides, it is not a stupid analogy. the point of it is the fact that the human species is a whole body, you cannot break down things into neat little compartments.

what is your point here anyway, are you somehow trying to avoid responsibility for what is happening in this world perhaps by saying, hey I was not the end comsumer, so it is not my fault?

and finally, in regards to your knife and who consumed the steel, you the buyer or the guy who made it...neither "consumed" it. The steel is still there, albeit in a different form maybe. Steel is not like food or oil, it can change shape but it does not lose mass or get burned up.

[SinisterBlueCat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Agren', '
')
Nope, not everyone. But when I see a stupid analogy I call it that. I did not say (or think that) you are stupid or that your ideas are stupid, but I still think the analogy is poor. Your stomache has no choice in wheather to take care of the crisp, but you certainly have a choice not to buy the knife, or whatever it is you are buying. Sometimes the consumption of whatever obviously is needed and good, at other times it's probably not.

[Ibon]

The link to the article by Martin Goldberg shows some interesting data of the bearish trend of manufacturers of expensive consumer toys, all of which are heavy users of fuel. These items all require financing which article states as the main reason of the slow down in the market for these products but you can't help but suspect fuel costs also being an important factor. As has been often predicted it will be these luxury uses of oil that will be the first to suffer in a peak oil world. Is this just a momentary trend or the beginning of a permanent pulll back? link

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')inally, today’s action saw all of the capital playthings’ stocks going up. Winnebago (up 1.8%), Brunswick (up 0.64%), Harley Davidson (up 1.3%), Marine Products (up 1.6%), and Polaris (up 1%).