[jato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ome a crash - economic or otherwise, wouldn't a box of .22 ammo be better to have than a handful of pre1965 silver?

[jimmyc]

Personally, I arrived here from the opposite direction. I have been learning a lot about our unconstitutional monetary system and the Federal Reserve by reading books such as "Creature from Jekyll Island." I started buying gold and silver because I realized the whole thing could literally come apart at any time. But I thought I was safe by holding gold and silver.
Then last week I found out about peak oil! Oh, great! As if learning we have an absolutely corrupt monetary system that seeks to enslave people is not bad enough, now I have to deal with the possibly imminent collapse of civilization itself. Well, OK. Let's get all the cards out on the table.
I still think gold and silver is the way to go for excess funds. They have functioned as money for 5,000 years. Gold and silver have no master. Whatever monetary system emerges from the crash will likely be based on these two metals, IMO.
I believe that ultimately oil will be priced in gold, perhaps the gold dinar that is being introduced in many Muslim countries.
But by all means, the most important thing is securing a source of food, water, and energy. In the end, you can't eat gold and silver.
I just want to say thanks to Matt Savinar for writing his book and making it available. It has changed my life. Also, thanks to the people such as Simmons, Hineberg, etc., who are trying to get the word out. I'm still grappling with the implications but I'm glad I know the truth now.

[jpatti]

For barter goods, think luxuries that will no longer be available...

Spices of all kinds, cinnamon, cloves, etc.

Chocolate! Most easily stored as cocoa, you can use butter and cream to turn it back into chocolate.

Coffee. But it doesn't store well long term. If it did, I'd already have stocked a lifetime supply as I'm an utter addict.

These are things that you can't grow in most of the US and Canada, we currently transport them in with cheap oil. And they are luxuries, those who own a supply will be considered "rich" sometime in the future.

Someday, a tin of cocoa will be worht much more than it's weight in gold.

[Kingcoal]

The problem with gold is that the government (master) can make it illegal all of a sudden to own gold. It's happened before (1933, I believe), so it will happen again.

You're best bet is to be in good with rich people. Kiss up to the man and you can ride their coat tails through it. You'll see all kinds of things happening to keep the average joe (slave) from profiting off of collapse.

[jimmyc]

Good point. Although, I don't think they actually confiscated it from the homes of private citizens. Basically, told citizens you have to bring it into a bank, (whereupon it was confiscated) or else. And used the coersion of painting you as a "hoarder" to get you to bring it in.
Just like today, where we have no real definition of a terrorist, FDR did not define the term "hoarding". A favorite trick of politicians, I guess.

[Tyler_JC]

I can't wait to see the "Police" going door to door taking gold/silver from people and bringing it to the bank for exchange. No one is going to give them a single silver dime. If they so choose, they could kill people and take their stuff. But at that point, they aren't going to hand it over to the government anyway.

If you keep the stuff in the back of a closet, no one will know it's there.

[MrGresham]

jimmyc --You've had quite a week, haven't you?

I remember that feeling, after reading "Creature", like the ground under me wasn't quite solid anymore. Thinking, how could I have gone this long and supposedly learned so much, and not know this? Not sure everything in book is exact fact, but it breaks ground and definitely starts you thinking and learning. Exactly what a book is for!

And yes, I think our fiat money system is one of the most vulnerable things in our daiily lives. I'm just not sure its collapse equates to the long-term collapse of all the wheels it currently greases. But letting the air out of its bubble will definitely cut off much employment and consumption of things that are not necessities. How suddenly, and with what chances for adjustment, is the question. (Perhaps inadvertently forcing us into oil conservation, against our will?)

I always ask recent Russian immigrants what it was like there after the system collapsed in 1992. That might be a good topic for research here, and links to articles, etc.

[Tyler_JC]

Did you pick your account name based on Gresham's law (bad money drives good money out of circulation) or did you pick it based on your name?

I don't mean to be intrusive, I'm just wondering.

[jimmyc]

Mr Gresham,
Just like "jekyll" tied a lot of loose ends together with the military, political, and economic systems, "Life After the Oil Crash" tied a lot of loose ends together with how oil functions as the life blood of the system.
Matt Savinar was on Jim Puplava this week. Great interview. Check it out at www.financialsense.com and go to Broadcast. I had heard the term Peak Oil and read a Matt Simmons article on how Saudi production might be topping out, but Matt Savinar's book really brought the point home.
It's been a heavy week, no doubt about it. I have two young kids and have basically had to reassess everything about plans for the future and providing a good life for them. One good thing is that it has made me more aware of how much I love my wife and kids.
This is a great forum and I look forward to contributing when I have something to add.

[savethehumans]

I really feel that a barter economy will evolve in the post-carbon age. If you have useful skills that you can exchange (for someone else's skills, or for needed goods, or even "luxuries"), you will be in a far better situation that most people--especially the ones who survive Die Off. For me, it ain't farming--my Black Thumb of Death once killed a cactus, cuz I overwatered it! And I sure ain't mechanically inclined! I think knowing how to knit, darn, and hand patch or sew would be barterable skills; I'd also like to know how to can foods (i.e., you grow 'em, I'll preserve 'em). If people want some kind of info, I'm pretty good at research (i.e., tracking the stuff down). I could help manage the distribution and return of books (and people will be needing them, to learn "how-to," and just to get away from it all--no more TV, folks!) Wonder what kind of library system a localized world would have? Probably combined with whatever we use for education (reading, writing, 'rithmatic--and trade skills/apprenticing). It's hard to know. With limited power from renewables, we'd be a cut above Little House on the Prairie, but WAY far away from where we are now! (Not that that's ALL such a bad thing....)

The key is, if you can't have someTHING to exchange for things and/or services, you'd darn well better have some practical SKILLS to, uh, market (OUCH! The "M" word! ). You don't lose skills; you don't always have "stuff."

[AnxietyAttack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kingcoal', 'Y')ou're best bet is to be in good with rich people. Kiss up to the man and you can ride their coat tails through it. You'll see all kinds of things happening to keep the average joe (slave) from profiting off of collapse.

[jpatti]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NiKfUrY69', 'B')ut still - no one has presented a viable reason for precious metals over usable or edible items. I contend there are none.

[born2respawn]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NiKfUrY69', 'B')ut still - no one has presented a viable reason for precious metals over usable or edible items. I contend there are none.

[Dustin]

As I said on another post, one ounce of gold historically has always purchased around 400 loafs of bread, going back to the Egyptians. I believe the love of gold is engrained in our DNA or something. It will always have value. It will always be coveted. It will always be accepted for goods and services. And any wise peaker should have a sizable amount of it stored away for rainy days. My personal plan includes maintaining about 400 - 500 dollars in silver (60 ounces) and after that acquire 5 - 10 ounces of gold. This amount is very convenient because it is not large enough to get real attention, but it can easily be traded for anything needed. Of coarse other barter items are needed. For example, tobacco can be stored for years if stored properly. Buying up a few hundred dollars in cigarettes might be a wise investment. Buying up bullets, for self and trade is good. Tools and cloth are in the same group.

I think the key goal should be diversifying holdings. One should not just have gold or bullets, but have both. Have something everyone wants and something everybody needs. So NiK, Bank on ammo, but I think it would be wise to also buy up some other commodities.

Then again, this is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[MrGresham]

Tyler, jimmyc

Yes, this thread is about Money. Money has arisen independently in nearly all human cultures throughout the earth and over many centuries. It seems to be an independent need of humans to have a medium of exchange, and a store of EXCESS value locking in future trades, when basic commodity needs are already met.

So yes, my name is about picking which Money is the best, and how to deal with temporary situations when everyone else is running the wrong way (best time for a Contrarian mind to score!). That's Sir Tom G, and I think I remember he was one who gave the first Queen Liz some good advice. (Just can't remember what it was, at the moment.)

Yes, get your ammo and tools and seeds, but what do you do when you're full up with those and you're not sure whether you should get another brick of cartridges or another hoe or pack of seeds? That's where money comes in, and there's a pretty good chance that someone will accept your coin in exchange for the next thing you really need, when you've acquired the incoming information to determine just what that will be.

A common money acquires some of its value from the exchange costs of switching from one end-use item to another, when you find you are over-weighted in one and short of the other.

But if you are a basic hand-to-mouth guy, then this will mostly be of theoretical interest (or non-interest) to you, and you will watch as others play the big-money game of its day, whatever it is.


Tyler -- GO SOX!

[MrGresham]

Nik --"Come a crash - economic or otherwise, wouldn't a box of .22 ammo be better to have than a handful of pre1965 silver? "
I can't resist the economist's stock answer: "It all depends..."
(I think other times they also say "ceteris paribus" but that's a slightly different qualification. You are definitely providing a FRAMEWORK for thinking of this problem -- thanks!)

[frankthetank]

You can't eat gold and silver, but you can hunt/fish with .22/fishing pole. A bicycle or 2 might come in handy. Look @ China, they have a huge population of bicycle riders.

I've been thinking of that Seinfeld episode of the rickshaw. Might be able to make some money taking the old/fat for rides.

[savethehumans]

Actually, China's people are a lot less into bikes now that the Powers That Be have determined the country is going to modernize into the World Economic System. Bikes are frowned upon in cities anymore, and cars jam the streets. You've GOTTA have a car! This is the 21st Century, after all!

Yes, we've got them thinking like THAT now. And they are actively dealing with Saudi Arabia and the Middle East, the Caspian region, and Africa. They've had BIG stakes in Sudan, for instance! Yep, their demand is growing by leaps and bounds--and THEIR oil wells are peaking, and THEY are starting to bite into the Oil Pie that (of course!) is America's birthright!

The future resource wars have got a new, powerful player!

I think the crash may run away, out of control. But slow or fast, the (accurate) point has been made: gold and silver can't be eaten. And the guy who can fix your old clunker of a car, converted to run on veggie oil, will get some of the food stash you have far sooner than the guy offering you a gold bar. What if the guy you want to trade a gold bar to in exchange for something you badly need doesn't WANT a gold bar? Maybe he wants a CANDY bar...and some veggies...and veggie seeds...and his socks need darning cuz he can't lay hands on new pairs--unless, of course, YOU have some new pairs....

You get the point here. Exchange of value for value is as old, if not older, than exchange of gold or coin for something. Ancients were just as likely to trade a couple sheaves of barley for a couple pounds of that rare exotic fruit! This newly-made garment for those newly-made shoes! Bartering was, is starting to be now, and will be the most effective, accessible way for the Average Joe and Jane to meet their needs (or even the occasional want!). Products or skills--that's what you need to have. Gold? Silver? Well, maybe if you make jewelry from them....

[NeoPeasant]

There are civilizations that are now only paragraphs in history books yet their gold and silver coins are still valuable.
US gold and silver coins will still be traded for goods long after all US paper currency has been burned by someone to keep warm.
If I cannot spend my modest stash of coins in my lifetime I will pass them to my children. They will have value some day in the future. They may be perhaps even more valuable than in ancient times due to all the gold and silver mines having been depleted by 20th century industry.

[Dustin]

I think most people missed my point in the need to diversify investments. Sure you can not eat gold and silver, but what if you need something and you cant trade fish or shotgun shells. To be ready get both Metals and Guns.