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THE Brent Crude Thread (merged)

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

THE Brent Crude Thread (merged)

Unread postby cuculillo » Wed 20 Jul 2005, 04:43:54

Once I noticed the severity for the Peak Oil problem, I've started to use my savings in oil futures (NYMEX Crude Oil) . As my broker only allows me to deal with the very next contracts (one or two monts) I'm forced to roll every month.

Recently, my broker has introduced the ability to buy IPE Brent Oil futures, and now using the whole set of available contracts (up to Dec09).
I've been searching around for the closing prices in these futures (IPE Brent Oil in UK) and haven't found data longer than Sep06 ( :razz: free of course).

Anyone can help me? Thanks in advance.
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Unread postby savethehumans » Wed 20 Jul 2005, 06:55:43

They don't list those in the BBC News' Business section? Brent is London's standard, like Dow Jones is that of the U.S. Check that out, at least!
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Unread postby dukey » Wed 20 Jul 2005, 09:52:57

i've never done any stock and shares etc
but im interested
if the price of oil rises and we have accepted and know this then hopefully should be able to make some $s etc

so what u trying to do exactly
just buy futures contracts for contracts in the future and sell them for more when the price goes up ..?
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Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby joewp » Thu 02 Mar 2006, 16:10:51

It's always been 50 cents to a dollar cheaper, and now Brent is ~50 cents higher than light, sweet. This just happened recently. Does anyone know why?
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Re: Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby kmann » Thu 02 Mar 2006, 16:31:01

I noticed that this afternoon and was puzzled by it. Hopefully someone can answer.
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Re: Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 02 Mar 2006, 16:41:06

Getting ready to trade in Euros.......

(just kidding)
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Re: Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby nth » Thu 02 Mar 2006, 18:06:44

What was the Brent price?

This should not be possible, except for time difference.
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Re: Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby kmann » Thu 02 Mar 2006, 18:30:36

Feb 28 close:
NYMEX Light Sweet Crude +0.56 $61.97
IPE Brent +0.69 $62.45

From:
WTRG
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Re: Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 02 Mar 2006, 18:33:25

Adam Smith says that, for whatever reason, that must be optimal because the market said so.
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Re: Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby ubercynicmeister » Thu 02 Mar 2006, 19:06:53

I have seen the two swap "positions" over the last few months, where Brent Spar was (briefly) above West Texas Intermediate Crude, now it seems stuck there.

Y'don't think it could be to do with the fact that the North Sea is really running out much faster than even the idiot Economic Rationalists are letting on?

What happens if the North Sea Oil & Gas production precipitously declines...one assumes it cannot do that, but my assumption may be incorrect.

(LOL, this is where the Closet Cornucopians all dive in and try to reassure us that the Free Market Will Solve All problems, just like it did in 1929)
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Re: Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby joewp » Thu 02 Mar 2006, 19:14:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ubercynicmeister', '
')Y'don't think it could be to do with the fact that the North Sea is really running out much faster than even the idiot Economic Rationalists are letting on?


That's what I thought, that it has to do with North Sea depletion, but you put it so much more colorfully than me! If this is the case, then no amount of Saudi pledges to produce more will help.
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Re: Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 02 Mar 2006, 19:32:33

We all know that oil is fungible and all of that, but surely as the prices rise the cost of physical delivery will also go up (as that takes, you guessed it, oil).

So presumably, the actual location of the oil may start to make more of an impact in the pricing, as the final recipient is going to have to pay for both the oil and delivery?

I'm not an economist or trader etc, just using my head.
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Re: Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby Eddie_lomax » Thu 02 Mar 2006, 19:53:07

I did read somewhere an analysis of the airline industry and its projected growth, in it he talked about the percentages of aviation fuel you could get from North sea oil (25%) or middle eastern crude (8%).

Unless I missed something big here (it was a credible article) it seems like the oil is more useful for aviation - can anyone else confirm this (or correct me if I'm wrong!).
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Re: Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby ubercynicmeister » Thu 02 Mar 2006, 21:31:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'W')e all know that oil is fungible and all of that, but surely as the prices rise the cost of physical delivery will also go up (as that takes, you guessed it, oil).

So presumably, the actual location of the oil may start to make more of an impact in the pricing, as the final recipient is going to have to pay for both the oil and delivery?

I'm not an economist or trader etc, just using my head.


AHH, well if you can add and subtract, then you are over-qualified to be an economist. Heck, we wouldn't want you showing up your "collegues", now, would we?
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Re: Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 02 Mar 2006, 21:36:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ubercynicmeister', 'A')HH, well if you can add and subtract, then you are over-qualified to be an economist. Heck, we wouldn't want you showing up your "collegues", now, would we?


I wasn't sure if my observation was already factored into the wibble flim flam index.
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Re: Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby MrBill » Fri 03 Mar 2006, 06:06:47

WTI is a lighter and sweeter grade than Brent, which is why it normally trades at a premium, but at the moment, the US is well supplied and refiners are taking down time for maintenance ahead of the summer driving season and the switch to ethanol from MTBE and to lower sulfur diesel, so the stocks of crude are piling up in the US.

Of course, the basis of futures trading is the risk or promise or threat of physical delivery. No one wants physical delivery of WTI at the moment so they are discounting it. But the situation in the US does not reflect the global risks from terrorism and the threats of supply disruptions, therefore Brent is still well supported.

Basically, the way I see it (feel free to disagree) is that the US is an end consumer, but Europe is both consumer and exporter. They import crude from the N. Sea, Russia and the ME, but when they refine it into products, Europe uses more diesel and less gasoline, so they export gasoline to the US. When the spread gets wide enough, you can also arbitrage Brent into the US at a discount. Therefore, I look at Brent as sort of an all purpose medium grade versus WTI which is a specific grade meant for US consumption.

That may not make too much sense, but seems to explain why on average Brent trades at a discount to WTI, but right now, with the bathtub overflowing and the drain partially plugged, why the US is discounting WTI at the moment even in the face of possible supply disruptions elsewhere. But this only affects the April contract. If you look at May forwards, you will see WTI at a premium to Brent again.

In my opinion, WTI at a discount is a screaming buy. Buy WTI, sell Brent. When it rallies, sell your WTI. When it falls, buy your Brent back.
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Re: Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby kmann » Fri 03 Mar 2006, 11:21:39

That makes sense to me. Thanks MrBill!
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Re: Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby MrBill » Fri 03 Mar 2006, 11:25:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kmann', 'T')hat makes sense to me. Thanks MrBill!



It is at -84 cents right now with about two weeks until contract maturity on the Brent. It looks very tempting, but I am less certain on overall direction. Big week of news coming out next week and uncertainty heading into the weekend. Best to leave it alone this afternoon. Have a nice weekend. Cheers.
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Re: Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby Marklar » Fri 03 Mar 2006, 20:46:40

Somewhat related question,

how come the WTI spot and future prices almost always seem to agree at the end of the day?
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Re: Why is Brent more expensive than WTI?

Unread postby MrBill » Sat 04 Mar 2006, 04:37:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Marklar', 'S')omewhat related question,

how come the WTI spot and future prices almost always seem to agree at the end of the day?


That I do not know. I will have to check the delivery options for NYMEX crude and see where the delivery points are, or ask one of my friends who trade cash?
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