People are going to have to learn that the days of Massive projects are quickly coming to an end. We won't be building any more 100+ floor buildings, there will be no more dam's that flood as far as the eye can see, there will be no gigawatt sized powerplants.
We simply won't have the energy to attempt these massive centralized projects. Power in the future will be developed locally, either at the site or in a small powerplant run by the community.
When I'm looking for investments I'm looking for small companies that sell directly to households. Solar panels, inverter manufacturers, I'd love to find a small windmill company. Not GE sized 200+ foot tall turbines but small enough to put in your front yard and get a nights worth of lighting out of them.
PeakOil is You
THE Solar Tower Thread (merged)
Re: Australia's solar tower plan ?
by strider3700 » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 14:08:22
shame on us, doomed from the start
god have mercy on our dirty little hearts
god have mercy on our dirty little hearts
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Re: Australia's solar tower
by Jonathan_Hoag » Sat 25 Feb 2006, 13:37:05
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dhfenton', 'M')y understanding of this is that the technology is very sound; but the cost seems prohibitive.
The technology is not sound, except in the most basic sense of that yes, it can be built, and yes it will produce some electricity.
But with an efficiency of just 2-3% under ideal conditions and given the huge size the plant has to be to get even that efficiency, it is far from being a sound technology.
If you want soalr, you'd be much better off with photovoltaics (expenssive but better efficiency and can be distributed) or concentrated solar thermal (much better efficiency, around 30%)
Concentrated solar thermal would work extremely well in dry, sunny climate wher ethey want to build the solar tower. and actually there was a bit of a bait and switch going on. Originally, German creators of the technology, Schlecih and Bergenmann (www.sbp.de) argued for the solar tower by saying that concentrated solar does not work well in hot but wet climates and geared te development towards those sites.
However, since Enviromission they changed their tune. It is not difficult to see why. Given the low efficiency, having to rely on diffuse light a significant amount of time would decrease output. Plus, because of corrosive effect of humidity operating costs would increase dramatically. But that still does not change the fact that concentrated solar is the much better choice in hot, dry climates like the one in Mildura area.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
') Perhaps it will resurrect itself if the peak does arrive.
It won't. Other power generation methods are much better.
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Re: Australia's solar tower plan ?
by Jonathan_Hoag » Sat 25 Feb 2006, 14:02:14
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('strider3700', 'P')eople are going to have to learn that the days of Massive projects are quickly coming to an end. We won't be building any more 100+ floor buildings, there will be no more dam's that flood as far as the eye can see, there will be no gigawatt sized powerplants.
I hate to disappoint you, but yes, we will continue to build big stuff.
Solar tower is not shit because it is big. It is shit because it is too big for meager output (200 MW). If it was a 2 GW plant it would have been built.
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Re: Australia's solar tower plan ?
by ubercynicmeister » Sat 25 Feb 2006, 19:00:34
Hi Jonathon Hoag (you have an unpleasant profession?).
You're right about the "failure" of this project:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jonathan_Hoag', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('strider3700', 'P')eople are going to have to learn that the days of Massive projects are quickly coming to an end. We won't be building any more 100+ floor buildings, there will be no more dam's that flood as far as the eye can see, there will be no gigawatt sized powerplants.
You're right about the "failure" of this project:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jonathan_Hoag', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('strider3700', 'P')eople are going to have to learn that the days of Massive projects are quickly coming to an end. We won't be building any more 100+ floor buildings, there will be no more dam's that flood as far as the eye can see, there will be no gigawatt sized powerplants.
I hate to disappoint you, but yes, we will continue to build big stuff.
Solar tower is not shit because it is big. It is shit because it is too big for meager output (200 MW). If it was a 2 GW plant it would have been built.
Yes, exactly - for a massive investment - and let's face it, a 1 km high (0.6 mile) concrete tower in the middle O nowhere would be a huge investment - they would be getting a pitiful return, with electricity priced at 12.3298 cents per kilowatt hour.
Let's assume that they could charge that much (that's the domestic rate and the most expensive) for their entire 200 MW:
200,000 kW x 12.3298 cents = 2,465,960 cents per hour or Aus$24,659.60 per hour.
Number of hours in a year: 24 hours per day x 365.25 days in the year = 1,472,688 hours in a year.
1,472,688 x Aus$24,659.60 = Aus$36,315,897,004.80 income per annum.
That's Aus$36 billion, or about US$26.8 billion per annum. And that's at the highest price that's in the Australian Electricity market...if one remembers that the price can dip as low as merely 2 or 3 cents per kWh, then the above "income " drops considerably: Aus$5,890,752,000 per annum.
That might sound like a lot, but that's only income...it's not profit. The construction loans would have to be paid off. I dunno how much that would come to. Admittedly, the running costs would be very very low, but the whole project would need several billion just to start with, if they are going to build it in the "outback" as they keep stating they are. With such a locale, your income is after you've built every single last bit of infrastructure to get the builders & supplies TO the project site, and the electricity supply lines AWAY from the site, at a very remote location.
Undoubtably, someone will point out that having large columns of fast-rising hot air (such as those emitted from any large concentrations of politicians) is a fine way of generating low-pressure areas, thus generating clouds and rain.
Note: if one were to combine the "solar tower" idea with the "solar collector " idea (using mirrors to concentrate the Sun's light) then they might have a winner.
.
"To Get Rich you have to:
*Get up early;
*Work Hard;
*Strike Oil"
J Paul Getty
"To Get Rich you have to:
*Get up early;
*Work Hard;
*Strike Oil"
J Paul Getty
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