[kochevnik]

Gene For Depression Found

An Interesting Viewpoint On Why Depression Is Adaptive


You are here at this site for a reason.

Based on the many polls and screeds here - our average member is highly intelligent, free-thinking, introverted, intuitive, a bit paranoid, and a bit depressive. I could go on and on about the various traits observed here, but in the end, you, the average PO.com member, are genetically programmed / adapted for survival in tough times.

This place is FULL of grasshoppers, and the few ants who stick their big noses in here (Bigg and JD come to mind) generally get their heads handed to them on a platter.

While I don't completely agree with Mr. Vault-CO above, I think he makes some quite valid points. Instead of the clear racial divide that he sees, I think instead what we have seen over the last ten millenia of human existence is a gradual form of disgenics, that in particular, the proportion of particular genetic psychological traits has most likely changed qutie a bit in the population as a whole. In short, many of us here are throwbacks. We're the worrywarts, the Noahs, the Cassandras of earlier ages.

What we do - what we ARE - is the type of person that generally would have had a higher percentage rate of survival in tougher eras. Thus I think it would be pretty safe to say that whereas now we INTP/INTJ worrywart types make up very small proportions of the society as a whole, in millenia past, WE would have most likely been in the majority. As Mr. Vault-CO points out, planning for the worst is a helluva a lot more genetically successful strategy than just always hoping for the best. Aesop was undoutedly correct.

If there are tough times ahead, then those who survive are going to be different genetically than those who don't - that's why it's called natural selection. If there were no tough times, then I think it highly likely people like us would eventually disappear from the gene pool as endless good times weeded us out.

But for now, we're still here, and it appears that the universe is about to make us oh so useful once again.

{moved from open forum to psychology by SPG}

[Novus]

The so called "Endless good times" have hardly lasted the entire lenth of a human lifespan. The horrors of WWII and the great depression are still in living memory and those who still remember those horrors still have fear in their eyes. They know how quickly things can go badly. No generation has ever lived from cradel to grave in endless good times. The Boomers will live to see things go south with Peak Oil. The War Babies (born between 1935-1945) come the closest to living in ideal times. They were too young to remember past horrors and may consider themselves too old to care about peak oil. But even they may taste bad times befor the end of their lives.

Is what really amazes me is how quickly people have taken for ganted the good times brought on by cheap abundent oil. I want to know why optimism has not been bred out of the human race. I would think the dark ages would have been enough to kill the optimism gene. There is only one place I can think of that breeds pessimism and that is Iceland. The near colapse of their agriculture in the fifteenth century almost producing a Eurpean version of Easter Island will do that to a people. Anyway I think peak oil will bring back pressimism in a big way. In fifty years the optimism of the oil age will seem like a dream.

[strider3700]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kochevnik', ':')!:
This place is FULL of grasshoppers, and the few ants who stick their big noses in here (Bigg and JD come to mind) generally get their heads handed to them on a platter.

[Eddie_lomax]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'T')he so called "Endless good times" have hardly lasted the entire lenth of a human lifespan. The horrors of WWII and the great depression are still in living memory and those who still remember those horrors still have fear in their eyes. They know how quickly things can go badly. No generation has ever lived from cradel to grave in endless good times. The Boomers will live to see things go south with Peak Oil. The War Babies (born between 1935-1945) come the closest to living in ideal times. They were too young to remember past horrors and may consider themselves too old to care about peak oil. But even they may taste bad times befor the end of their lives.

Is what really amazes me is how quickly people have taken for ganted the good times brought on by cheap abundent oil. I want to know why optimism has not been bred out of the human race. I would think the dark ages would have been enough to kill the optimism gene. There is only one place I can think of that breeds pessimism and that is Iceland. The near colapse of their agriculture in the fifteenth century almost producing a Eurpean version of Easter Island will do that to a people. Anyway I think peak oil will bring back pressimism in a big way. In fifty years the optimism of the oil age will seem like a dream.

[wildilocks]

Heh. I always felt my name was given to me for a reason, too. And I have always been a Cassandra in every sense of the word - constantly seeing the future and not being believed, it is truly the story of my life.

[AmericanEmpire]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n some ways I am looking forward to seeing this bubble burst, but I also expect if things do change fast for things to get ugly even faster, so I guess enjoy the good times while they last!

[smallpoxgirl]

The psychologist on our faculty when I was in residency told us about a study someone did. They had an apparatus with a control knob and a needle indicator, and the study subject was supposed to control the needle. They would vary how much control the knob had on the needle. Sometimes the needle acted on it's own, sometimes it was under the person's control. At the end they asked the person to rate how much control of the needle they had. What they expected to find was that the people who were depressed would under-rate how much control they had. (Sort of like "The world is out to get me, and I can't control anything.") In fact what they found was that the depressed people very acurately rated how much control they had and the "normal" people grossly over-rated how much control they had of the situation.

Sort of leads you to wonder...are the people who are happy, just happy because they aren't really paying attention? And maybe the reason people are depressed is because they have a realistic appraisal of how bad things really are.

[topcat]

Gotta admit that the title of this thread made me click as soon as I saw it. Takes me back to the song by EL&P, think the title is 'You were meant to be here.'

Since leaving DC and buying the farm ~ 10 years ago, it would pop into my head somtimes, and every time then and now, I get the old goose bumps. Maybe there is a bigger reason for me being on this land, and on this list.

Gives me a glimmer of hope.

[Raxozanne]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', ' ') In fact what they found was that the depressed people very acurately rated how much control they had and the "normal" people grossly over-rated how much control they had of the situation.

Sort of leads you to wonder...are the people who are happy, just happy because they aren't really paying attention? And maybe the reason people are depressed is because they have a realistic appraisal of how bad things really are.

[LadyRuby]

On the other hand, maybe there's always been a certain segment of the population that is doomerish. Maybe some of us here have always been like this. But others (like myself) never would've imagined being in this camp a couple of years ago.

A question I ask myself: am I intuitive (and rational) enough to correctly sense that things are going off the track and hard times are ahead? Or have I just fallen into that 8% of wackos that have always existed in society to say "the end is nigh!!!"

I don't know. I like to think the former but worry it could be the latter.

[Liamj]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '.')..Sort of leads you to wonder...are the people who are happy, just happy because they aren't really paying attention? And maybe the reason people are depressed is because they have a realistic appraisal of how bad things really are.

[threadbear]

SmallPoxGirl, Intriguing experiment, you described! Most people will suffer any kind of hell, other than one where they aren't in control.

I think it was Elaine Pagels, comparative religions writer, who suffered the death of her husband and only child in separate incidents, a year apart, who made this interesting observation. She said she understood after she lost her child why parents torture themselves with the idea that they somehow could prevent their child's death if they had done a,b,or c. It doesn't matter how truly accidental the death was, or how little they really could have done, they engage in a ritual of self torture, regardless.

She made the point that as long as parents believe that they could have done something to prevent the death of their child, it's better than the idea that there was nothing they could have done. Horrendous guilt was preferable to an overwhelming sense of powelessness and lack of control.

So yes, a correct world view, one that acknowledges helplessness is either depressing, or depressives are the only ones who will entertain it, as they are already depressed. But, there are work arounds, philosophically speaking.

[Vexed]

Were we born to be here on PO.com?

Perhaps so. Perhaps our frontal lobes are just damn bigger than everyone elses?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hus the frontal lobes may be involved with peculiarly human functions in two different ways. If they control anticipation of the future, they must also be the sites of concern, the locales of worry. This is why transection of the frontal lobes reduces anxiety. But prefrontal lobotomy must also greatly reduce the patient's capacity to be human. The price we pay for anticipation of the future is anxiety. Foretelling disaster is probably not too much fun; Pollyanna was much happier than Cassandra. But the Cassandra components of our nature are necessary for survival. The doctrines for regulating the future that they produced are the origins of ethics, magic, science and legal codes. The benefit of foreseeing catastrophe is the ability to take steps to avoid it, sacrificing short-term for long-term benefits.

[Antimatter]

I bet the Y2K doomers were saying the same things about themselves

[MrBill]

Great links. Thanks.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')osted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:36 pm Post subject: You were BORN to be here at PO.com

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Gene For Depression Found

An Interesting Viewpoint On Why Depression Is Adaptive


You are here at this site for a reason.

Based on the many polls and screeds here - our average member is highly intelligent, free-thinking, introverted, intuitive, a bit paranoid, and a bit depressive. I could go on and on about the various traits observed here, but in the end, you, the average PO.com member, are genetically programmed / adapted for survival in tough times.

This place is FULL of grasshoppers, and the few ants who stick their big noses in here (Bigg and JD come to mind) generally get their heads handed to them on a platter.

[SHiFTY]

I would just like to totally refute the idea that a couple of generations can have anything to do with natural selection or evolution in a genetic or hard-coded sense. Homo sapiens have been around for many hundreds of thousands of years, and have adapted perfectly over that time to a tribal hunter-gatherer existence. Even agriculture is a blip on the timeline of human existence, let alone modern society.

What you are talking about here is primarily emotional & behavioural response to hard times and good times. Most people are hard coded to only judge crises instinctively in the short term. This gave early humans the ability to judge danger, but long term planning has never been particularly valued (still isnt). Maybe those on this site have more of a tendency to think long term?

Depression in a clinical sense is probably a genetic accident, like any other. It could be possible that this gene is somehow useful in a tribal setting. But it is important to realise that clinical depression is very, very different to 'having the blues' or being a bit down.

Interestingly, during times of crisis, human nature is quite often towards teamwork and optimism. People respond positively to being 'useful'. In the London Blitz of WW2 it was quite often remarked that the situation had made people a lot more sociable, as you relied on people more and were needed yourself for crucial work (despite huge destruction and tens of thousands dead). Contrast this with the cold impersonal London of today, despite being one of the most affluent cities in Europe...

I often wonder if during times of crisis, people externalise all their fears and issues (damn Hitler! Stuffing things up) but during times of affluence internalise- (the TV news is saying its the boom times, why do I feel crappy? Must be my fault)

Sorry for the stream of consciousness rambles.

(Note: There is evidence of some shorter term evolution e.g. having European heritage gives you higher immunity to black plague type diseases, as your ancestors survived it. However this is a bit more drastic than this discussion!)

[MrBill]

Natural disasters and other events allow people to get out of their everyday routine and have the chane to become someone else as you mentioned.

I am a volunteer in the national ski patrol and we do a lot of training for search & rescue, extraction & transport, first aid, avalanche drills, etc. It is an opportunity to work in a team in a positive manner and of course as it is volunteer poeple's behavior is quite different than their work demeanor. We train hard and then we have a good time drinking and socializing in the evening.

Contrast that with having to go to work. Working fixed hours. Sitting at a desk. Having responsibilities at home that keep you from socializing with your colleagues, etc. This is not to say you cannot enjoy your work, but the setting is more formal and so people behave differently.

So I agree with you. Bad times do bring people and communities together in a positive sense and great leaders are amoung us, but they rise to the occasion, they are not necessarily born or good leaders under all circumstances.

Having said that, some people seem to be able to plan further into the future than their next payday and are more successful because of it. And some nations and cultures seem to be better at it than others, too.

[kochevnik]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SHiFTY', 'I') would just like to totally refute the idea that a couple of generations can have anything to do with natural selection or evolution in a genetic or hard-coded sense.