[Jake_old]

I must admit, I am attracted to the 'liquid fuels crisis' term, but as you put it dub_scratch I suppose we will see a 'gas fuels crisis' in our lifetime, quite soon i suspect, then a 'nuclear fuels crisis' etc..

[dub_scratch]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RedJake', 'I') must admit, I am attracted to the 'liquid fuels crisis' term, but as you put it dub_scratch I suppose we will see a 'gas fuels crisis' in our lifetime, quite soon i suspect, then a 'nuclear fuels crisis' etc..

[aahala]

The three physical forms of fuels are liquid, solid and gas. We have a
liquid fuel crisis, a solid fuel crisis and a gas fuel crisis for all fuels
not renewable. Any decline of one increases the rate of decline of
the others. That's the energy crisis.

[thuja]

Liquid-fuels crisis is such a misnomer...probably so people can think that we just need to get our transportation running on something else (electric cars, hydrogen powered, etc.) when really we are dealing with a much more massive crisis.

Dub scratch is right...less easily produceable oil and natural gas means that if we turn to electricity to replace our liquid fuel, we have less electricity from the power plants to run our industries, heat our homes and turn on our lights. We would be robbing Peter to pay Paul unless you can

1-replace all declining oil/gas with electricity and
2-keep up with increasing demand for electric for all other purposes.

So yes we have an overall energy crisis that affects all sectors. Great Schlesinger piece by the way.

[NeoPeasant]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', 'A')nd now, here comes the thing I constantly try to push into your heads (see my signature):

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t should be emphasized that that would pose not a general "crisis in energy", but instead a "liquids crisis." Problems in energy other than oil are infrastructure problems, solvable through appropriate investment. To talk of a general "energy crisis" aside from oil is to divert attention from the central long-term problem. Advocating the construction of nuclear plants, for example, may be desirable, but it does not confront the critical issue of the liquids crisis. Basically, there is no inherent problem in generating and transmitting electric power, for which the resources are available. The intractable problem lies in liquid fuel for land, sea and air transportation.

[rogerhb]

Don't forget that other important liquid, water. Ironically, there was the recent report of a site being unable to pump out oil because of lack of water.

Down here we have a lot of reliance on hydropower and low resevoir levels hit the headlines.

[jimk]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aahala', 'T')he three physical forms of fuels are liquid, solid and gas.

[Starvid]

Why is peak oil a liquid fuel crisis and not an energy crisis?

The answer is pretty simple. We are running out of oil. We are not running out of natural gas (except locally), tarsands, coal, biofuels, uranium, wind or waterfalls. They are all pretty abundant.

We just have to build the plants and stuff. Very doable even in a world with high oil prices considering most plants we have today were built during the last oil crisis. With the words of Schlesinger:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')roblems in energy other than oil are infrastructure problems, solvable through appropriate investment.

[Coolman]

"What is dangerous is running around screaming "the sky is falling!" as it makes peak oil look like a silly issue only doomerist manure-powered back-to-the-land neopeasant wackos are interested in (and hence an issue to ignore). " -Starvid

And since when is back to the land wacko?
This land you speak of is what keeps us alive and personally keeps me sane. So maybe you need to open the office shutters and take a walk in the woods my friends. After all we are all animals here. Fine call me a crazy ass hippy I don't care but, atleast I know wilderness survival.

[Starvid]

Be my guest and live in a pre-industrial village if you like, I am not going to stop you.

However, I and another 99,99 % of the global population prefer to live in an industrial welfare state.

Linking peak oil to hippieism or conspiracy theories will result in no one with any kind of power taking peak oil seriously, something that will make peak oil much more severe as there will be no preparation.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', 'L')inking peak oil to hippieism ... will result in no one with any kind of power taking peak oil seriously, something that will make peak oil much more severe as there will be no preparation.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')fter all we are all animals here. Fine call me a crazy ass hippy I don't care but, atleast I know wilderness survival.

[Novus]

James Schlesinger is right to a point that peak oil is only a liquid fuels crisis. The problem is that so much of our world is dependent on liquid fuels that Peak oil is going to be a huge disaster. The prevailing economic theory of our time is Global Capitalism and it is entirely dependent on cheap and abundent liquid fuels. Locally our economies are almost entirely liquid fuel dependent. Suburbia will be completely untenable in the face peak oil.

Putting things in perspective, if we were to switch over to power our cars and trucks with nuclear electricty every suburban neighborehood would need it's own nuclear power plant. If cars were to be powered by wind every car would need to come with a 200 foot wind mill to put in your back yard. If cars were powered by solar you would need four acres of solar panals to fit in your back yard. The alternatives just arn't scaleable the way oil is or was.

In 1920 there were inter-urbarn street car lines that went from Boston to Washington DC and from Pittsburg to Chicago. Along the street car lines were strings of small towns surounded by farmland that could grow most of the their own food. If they were still operational peak oil would not be much of a problem. Instead we live in a world warped by the pervese visions of GM and Wal-Mart.

[MonteQuest]

You all got it wrong. Peak oil is an "economic crisis."

The end of readily available cheap fossil fuels upon which our entire civilization was designed, built and maintained.

[MacG]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', 'B')e my guest and live in a pre-industrial village if you like, I am not going to stop you.

However, I and another 99,99 % of the global population prefer to live in an industrial welfare state.

Linking peak oil to hippieism or conspiracy theories will result in no one with any kind of power taking peak oil seriously, something that will make peak oil much more severe as there will be no preparation.

[backstop]

Starvid -

From the point of view of sustainable agriculture,

on which your (somewhat optimistic ?) vision of globally peaceful Nuclear-powered Industrial Welfare States would of course be dependent,

I'd say that Peak Oil is one of a range of common symptoms of a defunct isolationist ideology
that seeks to centrailize wealth, power, production and politics -

It is not merely a liquid fuels constraint, it is a reflection of an unsustainable culture of industrial corporatism,
and dependence on the four finite fossil fuels with their diverse hazards,

that has over centuries been degrading our interaction with the ecological parameters of the planet to the present nexus.

It is thus essentially an ideological deficiency causing an ecological problem, of which our failing economic system is just a reflection.

The assertions made by the former US Secretary of State James Slessinger are just that, assertions about PO:
they choose to take no account of the intimately integrated interactions with other such symptons.

Slessinger is a character I've watched since, during the Vietnam War, hearing his supporter boasting he had a plaque on the wall behind his desk saying -

"Get them by the balls, and their hearts and minds will follow."

It seems that being spectacularly wrong is nothing new to him ~


regards,

Backstop

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he end of readily available cheap fossil fuels upon which our entire civilization was designed, built and maintained.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', ' ')It is not merely a liquid fuels constraint, it is a reflection of an unsustainable culture of industrial corporatism,
and dependence on the four finite fossil fuels with their diverse hazards,

that has over centuries been degrading our interaction with the ecological parameters of the planet to the present nexus.

It is thus essentially an ideological deficiency causing an ecological problem, of which our failing economic system is just a reflection.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', ' ')
Wrong as well... Peak Oil is a "Societal Crisis".

[Novus]

From the looks of things that Elephant is getting bigger and the living room is getting smaller. Soon it won't be a matter of ignoring the elephant but a matter to avoid from being crushed by it. To make maters worse the elephant has blocked the doorway and the windows. The time for a technofix even a limited one has run long run out. There will be no relocalization or renewed construction of coal and nuclear or an orderly abandoning of the suburbs. The world is poised simply to run out of gas and that is it.