Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Rather worrying article...

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby MrBill » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 06:33:03

Zambia's Plight Goes Begging in Year of Disasters

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')


Donor fatigue. When will the ongoing crises end?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')In January, to stretch its thinning supplies, the United Nations cut its already basic food rations to war refugees in Zambia by almost 40 percent — not just for the Nangweshi camp's 15,100 residents, but also for 57,000 refugees from Congo in four other camps.

The cuts were made after the developed world did not respond to United Nations' pleas for help to feed the refugees. Like similar appeals, they went unheeded in a year of many disasters and what aid specialists call a growing malaise among donors about such emergencies.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')One Nangweshi family of 10, its monthly ration exhausted, weathered January's final days by eating leaves plucked from plants growing outside its hut. Other families resorted to begging in villages outside the camp, but the drought last year left local residents so bereft that food or money for needy refugees is scarce. "It's a matter of priorities for the international community," David Stevenson, the Canadian who leads the World Food Program's Zambia operations, said in an interview in Lusaka, the capital. "What could be more obvious than refugee camps?"

Mr. Stevenson said that lapses in international food aid to refugees had been a recurring problem in Rwanda, and that after the earthquake in Pakistan last October the World Food Program came within hours of grounding its food airlifts because it was out of cash.






$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Outside, amid the camp's stick-and-mud-walled, thatched huts, virtually every family had a story about hunger.

Even before the cuts, "what we normally receive was not enough," said Gabriel Vunonge, the 62-year-old, one-legged patriarch of a refugee family of 13. The reduced ration, he said, "won't reach."




I would struggle to feed my wife and eleven chidren. Who wouldn't?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
Food shortages have become so regular in parts of Africa that some governments consider them normal, rather than emergencies — an attitude many aid officials say was at the root of the sluggish response last year to widespread hunger in Niger.

Often, as in Niger, money comes only belatedly, after wealthy donors have been harangued by the United Nations or embarrassed by news media coverage of hungry masses.

That is the crux of the problem, many aid specialists say. Support for global emergencies is purely voluntary, forcing humanitarian agencies to go hat in hand to governments, not just to sustain continuing programs like refugee camps, but for new emergencies like the 2004 tsunami.


And what about preparing for emergencies at home? Maybe an outbreak of human to human transmitted bird flu.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
"We are professional beggars," said one Europe-based United Nations official on condition of anonymity for fear of angering donor nations. He added: "Some activities, you can decide whether you want to voluntarily fund or not. But things like Darfur, like refugees — for that sort of thing, we should have a system that produces money faster."


So in other words, the UN and outsiders cannot interfer in Dafur and Sudan to prevent the underlying causes, genocide and persecution, but they are expected to fill the gap of feeding these people even though Sudan send oil to China and India?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Mr. Hess suggested, however, a second concern — the reluctance of some other donors to "step up to the plate," leaving most relief work to the United States and a handful of other nations, including Canada, Japan, the Netherlands, Britain and other European governments. Notably absent were the oil-rich governments of the Middle East and Angola itself, now at peace and reaping billions from oil and diamond sales.


Good point. Where is that ME oil money and help from African nations who have been on the receiving end of aid before?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n Nangweshi's nutrition center, a 36-year-old mother of eight sat in the dank hall with her youngest, a 2-year-old with diarrhea. In January, she said, their food ran out eight days before the February allotment.


Eight children, ten, thirteen... A freind of mine travelled through Ethiopia. Met a retired school headmaster. Educated. Relatively well to do by local standards. Spoke the local language plus English and Italian. Had fifteen children. His wealth allowed it and it was a status symbol. So much for education overcoming ignorance?

I do not think you can say that there is only one outcome and that is die-off, but to ignore that possibility in the face of the world's inability to manage its resources and present population would be a bit stary-eyed, too or not?
The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
User avatar
MrBill
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Eurasia
Top

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby Doly » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 06:56:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'A') freind of mine travelled through Ethiopia. Met a retired school headmaster. Educated. Relatively well to do by local standards. Spoke the local language plus English and Italian. Had fifteen children. His wealth allowed it and it was a status symbol. So much for education overcoming ignorance?


How educated was his wife? Fertility seems to correlate more strongly with lack of education of women. Educated women are more aware of contraceptive methods, and have more things to fill their lives that aren't children.
User avatar
Doly
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 4370
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Top

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby Permanently_Baffled » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 07:07:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I do not think you can say that there is only one outcome and that is die-off, but to ignore that possibility in the face of the world's inability to manage its resources and present population would be a bit stary-eyed, too or not?


Fair and good points Mr Bill.

I agree there will be a "die off" , its just the timescales and the manor I question sometimes.

Opinions range from rapid reduction in population because of mass anarchy in all countries across the globe, to a slow decline in across a couple of centuries.

Like most things I guess It will be somewhere inbetween and very much a case of where you are in the "petri dish"
User avatar
Permanently_Baffled
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1151
Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2004, 03:00:00
Location: England
Top

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby MrBill » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 07:42:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'A') freind of mine travelled through Ethiopia. Met a retired school headmaster. Educated. Relatively well to do by local standards. Spoke the local language plus English and Italian. Had fifteen children. His wealth allowed it and it was a status symbol. So much for education overcoming ignorance?


How educated was his wife? Fertility seems to correlate more strongly with lack of education of women. Educated women are more aware of contraceptive methods, and have more things to fill their lives that aren't children.



In my opinion, it simply does not matter. This is a rich world response to a third world problem. More education.

In some countries, women are not educated or poorly educated due to religious and/or economic reasons. For a good taste of what it must be like to live in Afagahnistan I can recommend the movie 'Osama' about a young girl's life and the struggle of her family after her father died.

Ironically, in some of these countries, educated women were stripped of their credentials and right to work after the glorious revolutions which returned them to Islamic republics. How can we go forward when we are sliding backwards?

Secondly, when we had 3 billion people on this planet in 1963 we had maybe 1 billion poor people (less than a dollar a day equivalent adjusted backwards for inflation). When there were 6 billion people in 2000, there were about 4 billion poor people. Since there were 6 billion people in 2000 another 450 million people have been born. Roughly the size again of western Europe or the USA. Most of these people are poor as well. When we have 9 billion in one or two generations from now, there will be likely at least 6 billion poor people to educate, nevermind feed, clothe and provide shelter for them.

Is education the answer when faced with such daunting numbers?

So solutions for that one sixth of humanity who live in the developed world may not be the best use of resources in those areas of the world that lack our generous resources. They need population reduction urgently. China style.

And, at the end of the day, it does not matter whether his wife wanted to have those children or not or how she would prefer to spend her day. Those fifteen children will (likely) grow up and have children of their own, and even if it is only seven a piece that leads to a mushrooming population in the areas of the world that can least afford it due to current capacity constraints.
The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
User avatar
MrBill
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Eurasia
Top

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby Peak_Plus » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 08:43:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')So solutions for that one sixth of humanity who live in the developed world may not be the best use of resources in those areas of the world that lack our generous resources. They need population reduction urgently. China style.

You are right to say that "education" is a stupid UN answer.
Population control "China style" is a stupid rich-world/communist answer.
Having many children is a tactic used by agricultural and developing societies. Change the economic base (paradigm) and you change the birth rate. Right?
This is the way the world ends,
Not with a bang but a wimper!
T.S. Eliot
User avatar
Peak_Plus
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri 01 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Germany/Ohio
Top

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby Ludi » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 08:52:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Peak_Plus', 'Y')ou are right to say that "education" is a stupid UN answer.
Population control "China style" is a stupid rich-world/communist answer.
Having many children is a tactic used by agricultural and developing societies. Change the economic base (paradigm) and you change the birth rate. Right?


Wangari Maathai on the women of the Green Belt Movement
“I placed my faith in the rural women of Kenya from the very beginning, and they have been key to the success of the Green Belt Movement. Through this very hands-on method of growing and planting trees, women have seen that they have real choices about whether they are going to sustain and restore the environment or destroy it. In the process of education that takes place when someone joins the Green Belt Movement, women have become aware that planting trees or fighting to save forests from being chopped down is part of a larger mission to create a society that respects democracy, decency, adherence to the rule of law, human rights, and the rights of women. Women also take on leadership roles, running nurseries, working with foresters, planning and implementing community-based projects for water harvesting and food security. All of these experiences contribute to their developing more confidence in themselves and more power over the direction of their lives.”

http://gbmna.org/c.php?id=11
Ludi
 
Top

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby Peak_Plus » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 08:57:26

Wonderful.
And? Does Kenia now have a lower birth rate?
This is the way the world ends,
Not with a bang but a wimper!
T.S. Eliot
User avatar
Peak_Plus
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri 01 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Germany/Ohio

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby Ludi » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 09:00:14

So, not enough for you that this woman won a Nobel Peace Prize and started a revolution, it has to already be reflected in the birth rate of the entire country?
Ludi
 

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby Peak_Plus » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 09:00:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'i')t's a doggie-dog world

It's a dog eat dog world.
Dogs are a result of symbiotic evolution with humans - but that's totally beside the point.
User avatar
Peak_Plus
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri 01 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Germany/Ohio
Top

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby Ludi » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 09:12:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Peak_Plus', '
')It's a dog eat dog world.


Really?

I'm amazed.
Ludi
 
Top

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby MrBill » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 09:23:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'S')o, not enough for you that this woman won a Nobel Peace Prize and started a revolution, it has to already be reflected in the birth rate of the entire country?



Um, Yasser Arafat and Shimon Peres also won a Nobel prize. So what? Did they change the world or make it a better place?

Kenya and Zimbabwe represent all that is wrong with Africa. Resource rich. Poorly governed. Corrupt politicians. Half of Kenya's government has resigned due to corruption allegations. Their colonial infrastructure badly in disrepair and tourist facilities still in decline. Super example.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ') You are right to say that "education" is a stupid UN answer.
Population control "China style" is a stupid rich-world/communist answer.
Having many children is a tactic used by agricultural and developing societies. Change the economic base (paradigm) and you change the birth rate. Right?


Was. Was. The slums are busting at their seams with new migrants from the countryside, so those births are not agricultural related. And in the Middle East, where countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia have some of the highest birthrates in the world, it has nothing to do with rural labor needed for farming.

I agree. Change the economic base and the paradigm. Use Africa's and the ME's rich resources instead of looting them. Outside world intervention in failed states. Worldwide economic sanctions against corrupt leaders who steal from their countries would be a good start, speaking of Arafat again.

But I fail to see how having fewer children is a poor policy choice if you have surplus labor? They have governments. Their governments have the ability to tax and legislate. Surely if they have the right to exit as a sovereign state they have the obligation to provide for their people's needs as well? Or is that just a rich world dumb idea?
The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
User avatar
MrBill
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Eurasia
Top

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby Ludi » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 09:34:12

I know it's important to discredit Maathai's work, but it does address the issues you mentionm Mr Bill. Really wish folks could be bothered to read about some of these things people are actually doing to solve some of these major problems...

But no, it's just more important to say "nobody is doing anything."
Ludi
 

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby Peak_Plus » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 09:44:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'S')o, not enough for you that this woman won a Nobel Peace Prize and started a revolution, it has to already be reflected in the birth rate of the entire country?

I am not judging the worth of her work. I am not discussing ethics. I am discussing the question of how to/whether to reduce birth rates. My answer is to change the economic base, if you want results like MrBill.

Continue doing good! Educate us! Help people help themselves! Just be sure which question ist being discussed..-)
This is the way the world ends,
Not with a bang but a wimper!
T.S. Eliot
User avatar
Peak_Plus
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri 01 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Germany/Ohio
Top

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby Ludi » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 09:51:01

*slaps head*

Empowering people to control their water and food supply, income, education, etc is certainly changing the "economic base" - why is this not evident?
Ludi
 

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby Peak_Plus » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 09:56:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', ' ')
Was. Was. The slums are busting at their seams with new migrants from the countryside, so those births are not agricultural related. And in the Middle East, where countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia have some of the highest birthrates in the world, it has nothing to do with rural labor needed for farming.

I would still call their economies agricultural, in the macroeconomic sense.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', ' ')They have governments. Their governments have the ability to tax and legislate. Surely if they have the right to exist as a sovereign state they have the obligation to provide for their people's needs as well? Or is that just a rich world dumb idea?

No, a very good idea, except...
Would you really call them sovereign? They have almost all been part of (if not always victim to) "globalisation" the past 500 years...
This is the way the world ends,
Not with a bang but a wimper!
T.S. Eliot
User avatar
Peak_Plus
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri 01 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Germany/Ohio
Top

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby gg3 » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 10:04:10

"Dog eat dog" hmm. And what, exactly, do those dogs stand for in the analogy...? And what do you call that?

---

OK, at risk of becoming highly unpopular around here I'm going to call out something that's a big unmentionable taboo.

In most of the places described in this topic, where having 15 kids is a status symbol, it is also the case that men traditionally screw around without restraint, spawning many more than the ones who get their fathers' last names.

This has very little to do with women, since women have virtually no control over their bodies in those countries.

Here's the taboo part:

It's all about mens' penises.

It's about the implicit belief that a penis = not only ultimate pleasure but ultimate power, and that men have an unlimited right to do what they want with their penises and no one can stop them.

Fathering a big flock doesn't just say you have a big bank account. It says you have a big powerful penis, and terrific testicles too. And the bigger the flock, the older the father, thereby proving that his "prowess" does not fade away with the years. And that is the ultimate case of a "status symbol by implication."

It also says you have power over "your" woman, or "your" women plural, as the case may be. That's just another form of slavery, as disgusting as any other; often backed up with clitoridectomies and similar atrocious tortures rationalized as "tradition."

No doubt someone will find a counterexample and try to use it to knock the foundations out from under my arguement here, but the majority of the cases in point prove the point beyond reasonable doubt.

What do to about this: find an anti-viagra that makes men go numb below the waistline, just like the "ethical birth control pills" in the Kurt Vonnegut novel. Put it in the food supply. For the first few years there will no doubt be paroxysms of violence as males discover their maleness becoming numbness. After that, they will settle down and learn to behave themselves.

Or do nothing and watch them die in greater and greater numbers.

Frankly I am ceasing to care about people who are doing themselves to death by their own hands. And that includes not only the rabbit-like breeding behavior "over there," but also the carcinomimetic (cancer-like) consumption behavior "over here." Those who are trying to reduce their impact deserve our sympathy and support. Those who are not deserve the Darwin awards they earn.
User avatar
gg3
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 3271
Joined: Mon 24 May 2004, 03:00:00
Location: California, USA

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby Doly » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 10:04:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')But I fail to see how having fewer children is a poor policy choice if you have surplus labor? They have governments. Their governments have the ability to tax and legislate. Surely if they have the right to exit as a sovereign state they have the obligation to provide for their people's needs as well? Or is that just a rich world dumb idea?


Trying to legislate sex is a waste of time. The solution has little to do with law and lots to do with things like access to contraceptives, education for women, and discouraging fundamentalist interpretations of religion that encourage people to breed. Plus a situation where having lots of children is more of a disadvantage than an advantage.
User avatar
Doly
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 4370
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Top

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby Peak_Plus » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 10:06:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '*')slaps head*

Empowering people to control their water and food supply, income, education, etc is certainly changing the "economic base" - why is this not evident?

My grandfather was a farmer.
My father in industry.
I work on a computer.
"How" my grandfather did his farming does not interest me in this discussion.
"How" my father did his industry does not interest me.
etc..
An agricultural-based economy is not dependent on its agricultural methods. Right?
This is the way the world ends,
Not with a bang but a wimper!
T.S. Eliot
User avatar
Peak_Plus
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri 01 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Germany/Ohio
Top

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby Peak_Plus » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 10:16:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '
')
Trying to legislate sex is a waste of time.

The solution has little to do with law .

Agree.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'a')nd lots to do with things like access to contraceptives, education for women, and discouraging fundamentalist interpretations of religion that encourage people to breed.

Disagree. Not completely, but to 90%.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '
')Plus a situation where having lots of children is more of a disadvantage than an advantage.

Agreed. Answer? Change the economic base. Possible? Not in our lifetimes.
This is the way the world ends,
Not with a bang but a wimper!
T.S. Eliot
User avatar
Peak_Plus
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri 01 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Germany/Ohio
Top

Re: Rather worrying article...

Postby Peak_Plus » Thu 23 Feb 2006, 10:20:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', '
')
It's all about mens' penises.



Why do you think that's taboo? If you can't buy a Harley or a Hummer, why not count your children?
This is the way the world ends,
Not with a bang but a wimper!
T.S. Eliot
User avatar
Peak_Plus
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri 01 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Germany/Ohio
Top

PreviousNext

Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron