$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cudabachi', 'S')orry my question sounded silly, I honestly didn't know.
So, if vegetables aren't produced for half the year, after PO is well-entrenched, can enough vegetables be produced during the summer to last for the winter?
PeakOil is You
Which countries will be best prepared for a post-PO world?
Re: Which countries will be best prepared for a post-PO worl
by jaakkeli » Sun 12 Feb 2006, 21:36:33
It would be no problem with high-energy agriculture. Without? If we suddenly dropped all food and energy imports, there would be a famine and a major population crash (but then, that would happen pretty much anywhere). Food imports aren't going to stop, as shipping bulk by sea is going to stay relatively cheap, no matter the energy prices, and there are warmer countries just a short trip away and in a world of gradually declining oil production energy can be substituted for the critical functions of society. The standard of living might be lower or it may cease to increase, but we've already tried that (there was a 5-year depression during the 1990s, with a bigger drop in GDP than during the Great Depression) and things stayed peaceful and non-nutty (ie. we didn't see real political extremism at all, nothing comparable to what you see in most countries even during these good times).
I think things look good for us as far as social cohesion is concerned, not exceptionally good as far as living standards are concerned (ie. if the UK doesn't blow up like Leaf is promising, they'll always have the economical advantage of not having to waste much energy on heating, which will be more significant after PO).
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ow a question about the farm animals. What do they eat during the winter months when the pastures are not productive? Do the animals live outdoors or are they kept in barns? Are the barns heated?
Hay is very easy to store. (And in general, it's easy to store stuff when it's cold. Traditional methods included even simply leaving fish outside for months, only protected from thieving animals - the Swedes still consider fermented whole fish a delicacy...) Animals, well, depends on the animals. Pigs? No way they're coming out on winter. Cows? Where I'm from, we kept them free to move between the outside and the barn themselves and they were happy to come hang out in the snow (as long as it wasn't -25 C or something). I don't think the barn usually needed heating, as with a lot of animal body heat and good insulation it just stays warm enough. Reindeer? Hah, you *can't* keep them inside (and why would you, since they'll survive -50 C and will find their own food from under the snow most of the time).
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Re: Which countries will be best prepared for a post-PO worl
by kerosene » Mon 13 Feb 2006, 01:44:50
Yes potatoes, onions beatroots and such easily survive the winter in cellars that do not need heating. And while tehy are not the greatest food day after day they do keep your stomach full and give you the required vitamins.
Personally that you can have quite a significant energy drop which would only kill the stupidest things - lamb from New Zealand, bananas from Brazil etc.
The summer time is trickier as cooling without energy is quite tough. We do not live in crazy AC culture like south US but with NO electricity cooling is tricky. Back in the long ago they used to collect ice during the winter and store it in a barn under sawdust. Amazingly it would not melt before it would be cold again.
Then you would saw small pieces when needed. This was used to keep milk
and similar things cooled. In some old barn at my parents farm I saw old ice collecting tools - big saws and hooks etc.
And I second the comment on animal barns. We had Hereford cattle when I was young and they would choose to be outside way below freezing. Only thing heated were the drinking points and I think at least the youngest calves.
Grain and hay obviously are ideal for storage.
h
Personally that you can have quite a significant energy drop which would only kill the stupidest things - lamb from New Zealand, bananas from Brazil etc.
The summer time is trickier as cooling without energy is quite tough. We do not live in crazy AC culture like south US but with NO electricity cooling is tricky. Back in the long ago they used to collect ice during the winter and store it in a barn under sawdust. Amazingly it would not melt before it would be cold again.
Then you would saw small pieces when needed. This was used to keep milk
and similar things cooled. In some old barn at my parents farm I saw old ice collecting tools - big saws and hooks etc.
And I second the comment on animal barns. We had Hereford cattle when I was young and they would choose to be outside way below freezing. Only thing heated were the drinking points and I think at least the youngest calves.
Grain and hay obviously are ideal for storage.
h
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kerosene - Peat
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Re: Which countries will be best prepared for a post-PO worl
by cudabachi » Mon 13 Feb 2006, 10:07:27
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kerosene', 'T')he summer time is trickier as cooling without energy is quite tough.
Interesting information, very interesting. But I do have to ask, just how hot does it get in Finland during the summertime? Do you actually need air conditioning?
Having been raised in the Southern Louisiana, I can honestly say that the summers can be very hot, and very humid.....for months. I'd imagine, especially with the design of today's homes, that it would be practically unbearable without air conditioning.
Back in the days before air conditioning, most homes were multi-story and built on piers sitting about 18" off the ground. Huge floor fans then pulled cool air from underneath the house and circulated it to the upper floors. Open windows above also added to the air draw via a chimney-effect.
It's hard to imagine trying to sleep in today's sealed box homes without air conditioning. Yet another 'advancement' that will come back to haunt us when energy prices have skyrocketed.
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cudabachi - Tar Sands
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Re: Which countries will be best prepared for a post-PO worl
by Starvid » Mon 13 Feb 2006, 11:44:32
Best countries without oil: Sweden, Finland, France, Japan, Benelux, Germany, Central European countries (Hungary, Poland etc).
Add Norway if we include oil producers.
All the Mideast oil producers, Venezuela, Canada (tar sands anyone?).
Worst countries: Cuba (check what they get their electricity from...), Italy, USA, island nations, sparsely populated nations. Australia. China, India.
Add Norway if we include oil producers.
All the Mideast oil producers, Venezuela, Canada (tar sands anyone?).
Worst countries: Cuba (check what they get their electricity from...), Italy, USA, island nations, sparsely populated nations. Australia. China, India.
Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
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Re: Which countries will be best prepared for a post-PO worl
by untothislast » Mon 13 Feb 2006, 11:56:06
All forecasts are academic. People are basing their analyses on the present climatic models for each country - unable to factor in at this stage, effects of future climate change - which are bound to be unpredictable.
The inhabitants of any places on Earth proving to be little Gardens of Eden, after the dust has settled, will be spending more time driving tanks than tractors.
The inhabitants of any places on Earth proving to be little Gardens of Eden, after the dust has settled, will be spending more time driving tanks than tractors.
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Japan???
by freetoken » Mon 13 Feb 2006, 13:32:44
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', 'B')est countries without oil: Sweden, Finland, France, Japan, Benelux, Germany, Central European countries (Hungary, Poland etc).
So, here I am sitting in Japan wondering why you think it will be one of the better places....
You do realize how much oil Japan imports? That Japan is a highly industrialized nation that depends upon trading out manufactured things to bring in such necessities as food?
Yes, only half the food is imported... I guess we could get by on half we eat now (and yes much is wasted in Japan.)
Still, you totally overlook how dependent Japan is upon the economies of the world with which to trade, especially China and the US, both of whom you list as being in bad condition.
The trains here are wonderful - I've written about that before. However, make no mistake, they love their cars here too, really they do. More importantly, they don't like sitting in the cold in winter and they have a penchant for hot baths, both of which require energy.
Furthermore, the population has peaked. Now, many of you may think that is a good thing (and in the long run it very well may be), but for the next couple of decades Japan has to deal with *declining* average productivity per person due to the dramatic swelling of the retirement age bracket.
No problem, you say, as standard human practice in the 20th century was to replace humans with machines. BUT those machines take energy!
Now, if the darkest scenarios on this forum play out then the Japanese will revert to pre-industrial days and perhaps do better than the Mad-Max world of Australia etc.
When will some of the people on this forum come to realize that modern human civilization is interlocked? As one continent goes so they all go...
ft
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