[ChicknLittle]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anthem', 'T')he obstacle is not time but rather the new DNA that is required for a new species. From where is the new DNA going to come? Species do not differ by only one gene. Random mutations do not generate new DNA. Random mutations do not change one species into another.

[entropyfails]

Mods, can we move this entire thread to the Hall of Flames please? It starts out with an inflammatory, untrue post and goes down from there. Not great “Open Forum” material, if you ask me.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anthem', 'I') don't have time to comment on all the posts since my last, so I'll just focus on a couple of points from this one, since it's a favorite argument of evolution faithful.

[Jake_old]

I have a much better understanding of evolution now, thanks.

[entropyfails]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RedJake', 'I') have a much better understanding of evolution now, thanks.

[Eotyrant]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anthem', 'I') don't have time to comment on all the posts since my last, so I'll just focus on a couple of points from this one, since it's a favorite argument of evolution faithful. The tailbone (coccyx) is not vestigial and does have a function in that it is an attachment point for a series of muscles and other structures in the pelvic region. It would not be pleasant to try to be seated without one. The appendix is part of the lymphatic system. Of course that doesn't mean we cannot live without it, but it certainly does not make it vestigial either.

[Jake_old]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('entropyfails', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RedJake', 'I') have a much better understanding of evolution now, thanks.

[entropyfails]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RedJake', 'a')hem....

I wasn't being sarcastic. It was interesting and amusing. should have used a smiley.

[anthem]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'V')estigial does not mean useless. It's simply a feature that has been selected against but is co-opted for another use. So the coccyx is a perfect example - a tail bone co-opted as a 'sitting bone' (as it were). Whale joints in flippers are another - the whales don't need joints in their rigid flippers, but since the joint is not being selected against it remains.

[ChicknLittle]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anthem', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')aeckel was a fraud..

[Armageddon]

whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion , no soup for you, next !!!

[anthem]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ChicknLittle', '
')
Ummm, haeckel lived in the 19th century when the science was young. His teaching is of historical interest (framing how the debate began) but the sciences of genetics, paleontology and evolution theory and general have progressed over the last 110 years. To refute evolution you must address the state of the science today, not misunderstandings from the 19th century ...

straw man - The arguer makes up a proposition never offered by her opponent (usually weaker than the true proposition) and then attacks it as if his opponent had offered that proposition.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Anthem, if you get a break from the technical stuff, would you offer your debate points on the evolution question from the most fundamental and simple standpoint: I mentioned this earlier that if you go back say 50 million years everything that was living was different. Even the organisms that seem to be similar to those of another time have "molecular clocks" that would show the passage of time. Life has changed over the billions of years. Do you deny that or not? Until you answer this coherently, I have to assume you are playing devil's advocate games since you are well educated. It seems that you are disputing natural selection in one post, and then evolution itself in the next. Clarify if you wish to be clearly understood. If you're really just playing games, well, the internet is good for that too.

[ChicknLittle]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anthem', '
')I replied to smallpoxgirl's proposition that human embryos have gills. Now perhaps she was not thinking of Haekel, but I don't think it's farfetched since the topic was, though not explicitly stated, the recapitulation misconception. That was Haekel's baby, and the fact that evolution supporters are still citing it is not a straw man. Perhaps you'd like to point to another straw man that I used.

[Eotyrant]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anthem', '
')
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow about the whales DO need them? The vestigial legs to which you refer are anchors for the genitalia muscularture of the whale. Here's a reference:

Douglas H. Chadwick, "Evolution of Whales," National Geographic, November 2001, p. 73.

I suppose if the whales didn't have them they could get their jollies (and hopefully reproduce) some other way.

I repeat, "vestigial" organs have been labeled as such because evolutionists need them. If evolutionists were trying to show humans evolved from birds, then hair would be vestigial feathers. It's pure propoganda.

[PenultimateManStanding]

If someone wants to dispute contemporary evolution theory as the mechanistic explanation of change, I've got no objection to make and I'll read it with interest. If the objection is upon evolution in principle as a historic process to be explained then I don't expect anything good to come from a discussion.

[entropyfails]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anthem', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he bottom line is that you don't know what vestigial means. Unless you actually read the evidence we provide, then such ad homs are justified, sadly.

[anthem]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ChicknLittle', 'I') think the fact that human and fish embryos share branchial clefts at a certain stage (which develope into gills in fish, head and neck structures in man) is an arguement supporting an evolutionary link... A common developmental stage or structure (between man and fish) is suggestive of a common ancestor...

[entropyfails]

What about all those important things you had to do? I guess being argumentative for its own sake takes precedence over it. But really, you just want to convert the heathens.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anthem', '
')Though I have not previously discussed how I came to my current position on evolutionary theory, now would be a good time to discuss it. Formerly I had the opinion, as one who believes in a Creator God, that evolution was the scientifc process that God used to populate our planet (and others in

[Eotyrant]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anthem', '
')
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he development of gills in fish and the inner ear in human are controlled by entirely different sets of genes. While similar in appearance (at a particular point in embryonic development, though not the same point relative to gestational periods in the individual organisms), biochemically these structures are not related and are formed by radically different biochemical mechanisms. This is not and cannot be evidence of evolution.

[anthem]

Well, I am rebuilding a mass spec and just got back to my desk for a moment. Sorry to have so disturbed you, eotyrant. By the way, what are you doing today? It's obvious that this debate will go on forever and nothing is being gained. It was pleasant entertainment though.

The evolution faithful cheer your "blistering" attacks on me. The undecided can see the vitriol of which you are so proud, and you'll probably lose some converts to your religion, as it were, because of it. You come across as belligerent and close-minded. I know, I know.. you're just trying to prevent others from being misled by my inflammatory beliefs, and you have the "truth". That's fine. If people decide to question evolution and look into it a bit, then all the better. The fact that anyone who questions evolution is instantly attacked is evidence enough of the fanaticism of evolutionists and the antithesis of true scientific inquiry.

<edited a typographical error -- misspelled word>