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Loud Sucking Sound

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Re: LOUD SUCKING SOUND

Unread postby crapattack » Thu 02 Feb 2006, 11:33:23

grabby wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')EXICO AND CANADA WERE INCLUDED in NAFTA for onley one reason

they are our #1 and #2 importers for oil and food, we NEED to totally dominate them.if they did not have oil they would have never been allowed to sign onto NAFTA.


It's called the "North American Free Trade Agreement", and if it didn't include Canada and Mexico, it wouldn't really be North American now would it.

As for dominating us we kicked USA ass in 1812, a war you guys lost with us. Oh ya. You LOST. And as for trade items, you guys get almost all your maple syrup from us so I wouldn't go pissing us off anytime soon. Otherwise you'll find your pancakes pretty damn dry.
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Re: LOUD SUCKING SOUND

Unread postby jdmartin » Thu 02 Feb 2006, 11:58:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', 'g')rabby wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')EXICO AND CANADA WERE INCLUDED in NAFTA for onley one reason

they are our #1 and #2 importers for oil and food, we NEED to totally dominate them.if they did not have oil they would have never been allowed to sign onto NAFTA.


It's called the "North American Free Trade Agreement", and if it didn't include Canada and Mexico, it wouldn't really be North American now would it.

As for dominating us we kicked USA ass in 1812, a war you guys lost with us. Oh ya. You LOST. And as for trade items, you guys get almost all your maple syrup from us so I wouldn't go pissing us off anytime soon. Otherwise you'll find your pancakes pretty damn dry.


:mrgreen: This post is a riot. Actually it was really the Brits that gave us hell; we were up there burning down York[Toronto]. You guys did do pretty well in the Great Lakes, though, taking Detroit and all; hell, we should have let you keep it or at least swapped you Detroit for Toronto!. And I gotta say, my Maple Syrup comes from Vermont, so I'd be Ok there. Somehow, though it's just a hunch, I'm guessing that we could make you guys our 51st state pretty easily if we felt up to it. But I digress...

In lots of ways NAFTA is screwing you Canucks as well. Pretty soon you're going to need all that Natural Gas that you're pumping down here to us energy hogs. And besides, lots of your jobs have gone to China just like ours.

(PS: Don't take me too seriously up there - I've got lots of friends and some relatives north of the border..)
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Re: LOUD SUCKING SOUND

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Thu 02 Feb 2006, 13:17:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '.')..or c) withdrawing from NAFTA, the WTO and all other free trade agreements and zones and erecting protectionist barriers. What you cannot have is everything your way.


I'm seriously researching the feasibility of option C .

Perhaps we can "have it our way".

We could close every foreign military base, make Willie Nelson Secretary of Energy and let the whole USA be one big, closed intentional community, then tell Iran/Israel and Russia/China to piss off and go fight it out somewhere.


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Re: LOUD SUCKING SOUND

Unread postby If_oil_grew_like_bamboo » Thu 02 Feb 2006, 23:05:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '
')
Why, then, are more Mexicans than ever attempting to come into the US? I have a small contingency of Mexican friends that work and live locally. They are all here because conditions are abhorrent in Mexico where they're from. They send money back home for their relatives to survive.


Although there is a huge gap in the economies of the United States and Mexico it does appear that Mexico has undergone some improvement in the past decade. Vicente Fox seems to have proven helpful in this regard. Mexico is better off economically than most other Latin American states.

Here is some information from wikipedia about Mexico's recent economic situation:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ccording to the World Bank, Mexico ranks 12th in the world in regard to GDP and has the highest per capita income in its region; and it is firmly established as an upper middle-income country. Since the economic crisis of 1994–1995 the country has made an impressive economic recovery. According to the director for Colombia and Mexico of the World Bank, the population below the poverty level has decreased from 24.2% to 17.6% in the general population and from 42% to 27.9% in rural areas from 2000-2004 [2].




$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his argument is one of those used whenever people are pushing free trade. It's a farce. IF there were no other "cheapo" places to go, then it's very possible that a higher standard of living could evolve in these places. Unfortunately, there's always another China or Vietnam for Multinational X to run off to. What we're seeing is competition between countries for jobs, not at all unlike what's going on in the US between states. How do states cope with this limited pool of companies? By offering huge incentives however possible. Those incentives include: tax breaks, subsidies, utility breaks, favorable laws, and other things. Southern states enticed Northern companies by offering cheapo labor and anti-union laws. This is exactly what China vs the US is doing. China is our South.


While the regions with cheaper labor do benefit more from free trade they usually do not hold all of the comparative advantages (unless the economic policies of the other country are extremely imical to economic growth.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd one other thing: what kind of "Trade" is it when you buy 10 items from one guy and sell him back 1 item of like value? It's pretty obvious that, eventually, unless you've got some inexhaustible supply of money, you're going to be broke since the other guy's not buying any of your crap. If you ran a car repair shop, how long do you think you could keep buying up parts without having people buying your repair services?


I checked out wikipedia and found this information (I do not necessarily guarantee complete and ideal accuracy in the following text however it seems to hold many good points):

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')rom wikipedia: Microeconomists do not believe that trade deficits are inherently good or bad. They do believe that trade deficits are generally harmful when countries engage in currency controls such as fixed or pegged exchange rates. They argue that fixed exchange rates do not allow the market to naturally correct any current account “problems”.

Milton Friedman believes that much of the fears of trade deficits are unfair criticisms in an attempt to push macroeconomic policies favorable to export industries. He states that these deficits are not harmful to the country as the currency always comes back to the country of origin in some form or another. He continues by informing readers that the "worst case scenario" of the currency never returning to the country of origin is actually the best possible outcome; as the country just purchased goods by exchanging pieces of cheaply made paper.

If these current account "problems" become unstable and unsustainable, Friedman notes that the market will correct any "problems" as floating currency rates will rise or fall with time to encourage or discourage imports in favor of the exports, and then possibly reverse again in favor of imports as the currency gains strength.

Friedman and other microeconomists also point out that a large trade deficit (importation of goods) signals that the currency of this country is strong and desirable. Citizens of such a country also receive the benefit of having the ability to choose between many competing consumables and lower prices than they would otherwise experience if the currency was weaker and the country was "enjoying" a trade surplus. To Milton Friedman, a trade deficit simply means that consumers get to purchase and enjoy more goods at lower prices; conversely, a trade surplus implies that a country exported goods that its own citizens did not get to consume and enjoy, while paying high prices for the goods that were consumed.

These trade deficit "problems" were explained in detail by Milton Friedman in Free to Choose, and his simple points re-examined by Dr. Reed. They can be found here: [1]

Eventually the exported currency either must be spent in the United States or it is held abroad (in which case it represents a type of future debt) while economic growth continues (hopefully) in the United States. There could be issues if too many dollars came flooding back into the U.S. however that is not necessarily a certain or probable scenario.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')ree trade is a crock of crap. It is a scam hoisted upon us by Corporations with the politicians in their pockets, designed to make a few people fabulously rich and turn everyone else into paupers. We can possibly have "free trade" with Europe, Japan, Canada because those societies are wealthy just like us. How did they get wealthy? We subsidized them until they were wealthy (Canada somewhat excepted). Japan was a mooncrater. Our workers constructed things that they bought, with our loans, until they got to be a wealthy, strong society and could afford to buy things from us on an equal basis. If we were doing the same thing with China, this would be a whole different story.

You are correct that the trade deficits are a problem (although the extent of the problem can be debated) however that does not necessarily debunk free trade. Part of the problem is that foreign products are ofte not as popular in Japan as Japanese made products (hence do not sell as well). Both China and Japan follow export heavy oriented economic strategies which could be altered somewhat through negotiation. The developing world (if one does not include China) is not running as large trade surpluses against the U.S. China illustrates the large advantage in the world that major centers of poplation have (although this is goes into other matters).

A lot of economists support free trade in some form or another so I cannot believed it cannot be dismissed too lightly. There may be some good points (as well as negative points) to protectionism however I suspect free trade outside of just the E.U., Canada, and Japan can work quite well under conditions, which are fairly reasonable to implement.
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Re: Loud Sucking Sound

Unread postby crapattack » Fri 03 Feb 2006, 01:52:50

jdmartin, Oh man, don't get me started!

"Canada" at the time was mostly British so when I say we took you to toooown, I mean we did. Laura Secord could totally kick Martha Washington's ass who ran from the White House like a wee girl.

Meanwhile, Vermont's maples syrup will give you cancer.

As for NAFTA, totally freakin' sucks. All it means is you can suck up all of our natural resources like the big hoover you are. We mostly are already the 51st state, but we still have our pride baby and you can't take that away, oh no. You'll have to pry the poutine out of our cold dead hands.
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Re: Loud Sucking Sound

Unread postby MrBill » Fri 03 Feb 2006, 03:49:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')ell seems to be able to do it? Dell is, for all intents and purposes, an Asian company. All their stuff is made in Asia. Their helpline people are in India. A poor choice to use as an example.


Well, I will admit there are a lot of Indians living in Edmonton, but it is still a Canadian city. I wonder if Americans have trouble understanding our accent when they call Dell's helpline, eh?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')erhaps we can "have it our way".

We could close every foreign military base, make Willie Nelson Secretary of Energy and let the whole USA be one big, closed intentional community, then tell Iran/Israel and Russia/China to piss off and go fight it out somewhere.



Now, that is the best idea I have heard, yet. But it would be even better if Americans were not allowed to travel either. ; - )


By the way, here is an interview with Andy Stern and his views on the future of labor, globalization and offshoring. Some of you might find it interesting.

Shaking up the labor movement: An interview with the head of the Service Employees International Union
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