[grabby]

Who remember's Ross Perot?

The weird little guy who promised
America would loose jobs if Global economy and NAFTA passed?
And the Unions would be killed off?

Well, He was right. There is a large sucking sound, of jobs heading overseas.
This shows up as the water is almost empty down the drain, and the unions are struggling.
Where is Ross now?

Probably moved to Europe.

Now we are SUPER GLOBAL and SUPER oil dependant, isn't that nice?

Well when the oil gets expensive we will be sorry.

[MrBill]

Hello angry person.

Just a few points to clarify. How did globalization make the US more energy dependent than it already is? I thought energy dependence had something to do with using 20-25% of the world's oil to support your economy, while having only 3% of its reserves, and not whether the countries labor force was unionized or not? Does unionization make a country less energy dependent? Oh, less economic activity, less energy consumed. Got it.

What do you have against Canadians? Do you object to a few autoworker's jobs going north? Seems like a fair trade-off considering they have to buy your media products, and they send you that oil & gas you seem quite addicted to? Or maybe it is the Mexicans you don't like? Yes, since NAFTA passed they are all living in McMansions and driving luxury SUVs, while Americans die everyday trying to cross the Arizona desert to find jobs in the border towns along the Mexican border.

Oops, did I see yesterday that unemployment went up in the USA? Yes, I think it did? From the lowest level since 2000. You remember the dotcom boom? When companies were paying introduction bonuses to find workers. Gee, it is sure tough being American. An average family income of +$45.000 and you get to buy stuff at Wal-Mart made by Chinese who earn $1000-1500 per year. And they get to live in an over-crowded, polluted country with no rights or freedoms. They cannot even surf the internet to post rants about their government because Google and Yahoo won't let them.

In any case, just curious about your world view. Fortress America. All the high paying jobs. A monopoly on the world's oil & natural resources. Union wages & benefits for everyone regardless of merit or education. To heck with the developing world and your neighbors. And if those pesky Canadians won't sell you oil & gas and their fresh water, the military might to go up there and take it away from them. And those Mexicans can stay home and work in luxury hotels for poverty wages, so long as Americans are safe & free to go down there for their holidays, but keep those beggars and children away, please.

Yep, I can see you give these issues a lot of deep thought. Ross would be proud of you my friend. Have a nice weekend.

[spacebuoy]

You're right, who remembers Ross Perot's comment now? It's ironic because at the time he was talking about NAFTA, which as a Canadian, I think has benefited the US, esp. when it comes to exploiting our resources, but in reality what has hurt or will hurt americans is the loss of jobs to India and China, which was only dimly perceived at the time. Despite the low unemployment, manufacturing is like a shell in the US, all products are made in Asia... look at the value of GM versus Honda and Toyota. It's true, Ross Perot sounded the alarm and was basically laughed at. The globalization of the financial industry means everyone in North America can get profoundly into debt thanks to lenders in Asia where everyone saves money, another huge irony. I think even if there wasn't peak oil, globalization alone would economically ruin the US, esp. with China desperately trying to catch up and having all the energy and vigor that it has.
Incidentally despite low unemployment, the majority of jobs that are available in the US are low-paying and or ununionized service jobs, not high quality, high wage jobs, which is why he's right about unionization suffering. Average wages have increased to a miniscule extent in the last few years, because good jobs have been lost and poor paying ones created.
All this stuff comes from 'empire of debt' by the way, Bill Bonner and Addison Wiggin.

[BO]

Mr. Bill wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')es, since NAFTA passed they are all living in McMansions and driving luxury SUVs

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BO', 'M')r. Bill wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')es, since NAFTA passed they are all living in McMansions and driving luxury SUVs

[BO]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')armers in Mexico have opposed and still oppose NAFTA because the heavy agriculture subsidies for farmers in the United States have put a great deal of downward pressure on Mexican agricultural prices, forcing many farmers out of business. Opposition to NAFTA also comes from environmental, social justice, and other advocacy organizations that believe NAFTA has detrimental non-economic impacts to public health, the environment, etc. In Mexico, as only a single example, poverty has risen considerably since the signing of NAFTA. Wages there have decreased by as much as 20 percent in some sectors. NAFTA's approval was quickly followed by an uprising amongst Zapatista revolutionaries, and tension between them and the Mexican government remains a major issue. Furthermore, NAFTA was accompanied by dramatic reduction of the influence of trade unions in Mexico's urban areas. NAFTA has been accompanied by a dramatic increase of illegal immigration from Mexico to the United States; presumably, a significant fraction of these people are farmers forced off their land by bankruptcy.

[grabby]

If a lake with water level at 1500 feet is connected to 35 small lakes with water levels at 1000 feet, eventually the 1500 foot lake is left high and dry with useless docks and boats.

and the smaller lakes are opoverflowing with cash(water) and they buy more cars and burn more gas and make more money,

Oil will be in short supply for the country at 1500 feet and no one can buy any.

Closing the borders and producing at home is the only way to economic independance
(CCanada and USA should unite Canada could be our 51 52 and 53rd state. They ahve the wood and the oil.)

Mexico needs visas and a big wall at the border.

and yes our goods will triple in price, but we will have jobs.
other wise it is downhill to the mud flats.

Vote for Grabby for opprez.
Libertarian I guess - Canadian libertarian.

[FossilFool]

I actually demonstrated against the WTO on my campus when I was in college for environmental reasons. Now, I think it could have been part of the demand destruction to intentionally make the economy weak. Or it could be just needing to increase complexity to grow more.

[jdmartin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'H')ello angry person.

Just a few points to clarify. How did globalization make the US more energy dependent than it already is? I thought energy dependence had something to do with using 20-25% of the world's oil to support your economy, while having only 3% of its reserves, and not whether the countries labor force was unionized or not? Does unionization make a country less energy dependent? Oh, less economic activity, less energy consumed. Got it.

What do you have against Canadians? Do you object to a few autoworker's jobs going north? Seems like a fair trade-off considering they have to buy your media products, and they send you that oil & gas you seem quite addicted to? Or maybe it is the Mexicans you don't like? Yes, since NAFTA passed they are all living in McMansions and driving luxury SUVs, while Americans die everyday trying to cross the Arizona desert to find jobs in the border towns along the Mexican border.

Oops, did I see yesterday that unemployment went up in the USA? Yes, I think it did? From the lowest level since 2000. You remember the dotcom boom? When companies were paying introduction bonuses to find workers. Gee, it is sure tough being American. An average family income of +$45.000 and you get to buy stuff at Wal-Mart made by Chinese who earn $1000-1500 per year. And they get to live in an over-crowded, polluted country with no rights or freedoms. They cannot even surf the internet to post rants about their government because Google and Yahoo won't let them.

In any case, just curious about your world view. Fortress America. All the high paying jobs. A monopoly on the world's oil & natural resources. Union wages & benefits for everyone regardless of merit or education. To heck with the developing world and your neighbors. And if those pesky Canadians won't sell you oil & gas and their fresh water, the military might to go up there and take it away from them. And those Mexicans can stay home and work in luxury hotels for poverty wages, so long as Americans are safe & free to go down there for their holidays, but keep those beggars and children away, please.

Yep, I can see you give these issues a lot of deep thought. Ross would be proud of you my friend. Have a nice weekend.

[diogenes]

MrBill, where in the United States do you live? Do you live in the "rust belt," where steel and heavy industry have fled? Do you live in the old South, where cotton mills and furniture have collapsed? Do you live in Michigan, where the automobile industry has become a staggering shell of its former self?

Do you actually believe official unemployment statistics? Recently, on LATOC, a story was linked which said that twenty-five thousand people applied for three hundred jobs at a Chicago-area Wal-Mart. Think about that: thousands of people competing for menial jobs which don't pay a living wage even in the sticks---let alone Chicago. Official unemployment statistics count only those who are eligible for federal unemployment benefits, which are limited in duration. What about people who have run out of unemployment benefits, or who never bothered filing?

You can't look at New York, New Jersey, and California and say: "This is how Americans live."

[If_oil_grew_like_bamboo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '
')Mexicans will be buying American goods, keeping US jobs afloat. Americans will be enjoying lower prices from Mexican produced items. Sounds good in theory but doesn't work in reality. Mexicans can't afford American made goods. The lower-priced Mexican goods Americans buy are transplants from the US. Only thing is, those $10 factory workers won't be buying any since they're now unemployed or working at Wallyworld for $6. Do this enough times and we're all scraping bottom.

[Odin]

The problem with free trade is that it encourages races to the bottom in order to compete, untimately benefiting the corporate elite and screwing over everyone else. It is one of capitalism's biggest flaws. Replacing investors with employees as the owners of businesses would make free trade a good thing since it would encourage compitition for workers, thereby increasing wages.

Love the thread title, BTW.

[TommyJefferson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Odin', 'T')he problem with free trade is that it encourages races to the bottom in order to compete

[jdmartin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Odin', 'T')he problem with free trade is that it encourages races to the bottom in order to compete, untimately benefiting the corporate elite and screwing over everyone else. It is one of capitalism's biggest flaws. Replacing investors with employees as the owners of businesses would make free trade a good thing since it would encourage compitition for workers, thereby increasing wages.

Love the thread title, BTW.

[DesertBear2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', ' ')Americans will be enjoying lower prices from Mexican produced items. Sounds good in theory but doesn't work in reality. Mexicans can't afford American made goods. The lower-priced Mexican goods Americans buy are transplants from the US.

[grabby]

MEXICO AND CANADA WERE INCLUDED in NAFTA for onley one reason

they are our #1 and #2 importers for oil and food, we NEED to totally dominate them.if they did not have oil they would have never been allowed to sign onto NAFTA.

What about America? WHAT DO WE PRODUCE?

In washington state our #1 EMPLOYER is the UNIVERSITY of Wahsington.
How sad is that?

Boeing is second.

Paper money, ARTS and politicians, all users of natural resources that produce minimalist worthwhile material, and profits made goes overseas into investments in europe to build factories and new technology.

Our colleges produce some science but less than India china and europe., they get hired (the best) by american companies who invent new tech and manufacture it overseas.

The big guys raped us, but we trust them anyway.
(Sounds like a battered wife)
But they bring a few parts over here and put them together by robot to say MADE IN USA, to pacify.

we had the best technology schooling and brains, but it all went to china and india sold out. What we have now is a pile of schools filled with equal opportunity student consumers in a diploma mill who ereally can't compare to the old engineering days.

You want a good education? go to India. Here it is nothing but a business, take their 75 grand and give them a diploma with a report card that show A's and they can't pass a high school exam written in 1880.

All companies still manufacturering anything worthwhile generally have the chief engineer some 55 y/o leftover from WWII era, those old guys can fix anything and keep things running.

Lets see America produce a Saturn 5 rocket using only sliderules. Can't be done again, common sense and guestimation is more lacking now.

Have to use intelligent computer systems and they will blindly build it and develope a huge plane too heavy to fly (No one double checked the computer program in europe, everyone blindly went ahead, it was too heavy to fly. they had to revamp it, someone programmed the computer incorrectly.

oh yes, corn and wheat somewhat we still produce some food because we have water. but Mexico and even Canada does this also,

Our economy was drivn by the hope of cheaper goods from elsewhere and now that is coming to a close.
We are strangling our doctors, and rewarding the lawyers for redistributing wealth.

I'd say America is post rape and still breathing but bruised.

Wonder if we can take the oil crisis?

[TommyJefferson]

Good one Grabby!

[MrBill]

So basically what you are saying Grabby is that LOUD SUCKING SOUND is not caused by NAFTA or in fact free trade with the Asian Tigers or anyone else, but caused by a failure to manufacture anything of value at home that anyone might want to pay for and a failure to educate enough engineers to remedy this basic economic flaw?

In this case America would be screwed with or without free trade, just like a lack of hard currency for imports and shoddy domestic manufacturing meant that Russians had to get by with goods of poorer and poorer quality even while the shelves went bare due to a lack of the basics. Funnily enough they had enough engineers, but just no functioning market economy?

Well, I guess when the wheel stops and living standards plunge far enough, Americans may rediscover hardwork and ingenuity plus a good education as the real wealth creators. Meanwhile, Congressmen's only solution seems to be punitive wealth taxes on oil companies rather than either reducing hydrocarbon consumption or actively looking for alternatives. Well, good luck with that.

Union jobs with union wages and benefits are not very sustainable unless you can actually produce something someone is willing to buy at a profit. If it were otherwise there are lots of workers and lots of wide open spaces in the rustbelts and midwest to build world beating factories. Just get a bunch of unionized workers to form employee owned companies, screw the big bosses and wall street bankers, and just get started. Give everyone a slide ruler and start churning out better products for less money than anyone else. Dell seems to be able to do it?

[jdmartin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'S')o basically what you are saying Grabby is that LOUD SUCKING SOUND is not caused by NAFTA or in fact free trade with the Asian Tigers or anyone else, but caused by a failure to manufacture anything of value at home that anyone might want to pay for and a failure to educate enough engineers to remedy this basic economic flaw?

In this case America would be screwed with or without free trade, just like a lack of hard currency for imports and shoddy domestic manufacturing meant that Russians had to get by with goods of poorer and poorer quality even while the shelves went bare due to a lack of the basics. Funnily enough they had enough engineers, but just no functioning market economy?

Well, I guess when the wheel stops and living standards plunge far enough, Americans may rediscover hardwork and ingenuity plus a good education as the real wealth creators. Meanwhile, Congressmen's only solution seems to be punitive wealth taxes on oil companies rather than either reducing hydrocarbon consumption or actively looking for alternatives. Well, good luck with that.

Union jobs with union wages and benefits are not very sustainable unless you can actually produce something someone is willing to buy at a profit. If it were otherwise there are lots of workers and lots of wide open spaces in the rustbelts and midwest to build world beating factories. Just get a bunch of unionized workers to form employee owned companies, screw the big bosses and wall street bankers, and just get started. Give everyone a slide ruler and start churning out better products for less money than anyone else. Dell seems to be able to do it?

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')roduce something someone is willing to buy at a profit? Who out there is able to buy anything we produce? The Chinese are us; the Chinese workers don't make enough money to buy anything made here. Europe is not buying American made goods for the same reason (buying Chinese). While Europe has better trade protection than the US, it won't be long before they're in the same boat as us, since this "race to the bottom" is taking place worldwide.