[annie]

Dale Allen Pfeiffer examines the series of unprecedented warnings issued by the scientific community over the past decade. He also comments on James Lovelock’s latest book, The Revenge of Gaia, and Dr. Love’s assessment that we have already passed the point of no return with regard to global climate change.
http://www.lulu.com/allenadale

[backstop]

Annie -

it's good to see a link posted to Dale P's excellent blogs.

One point I'd clarify is that Dale differs with Lovelock's conclusion that it is inconceivable that govt.s will co-operate to avoid our species eradication from the planet :

"While I agree that our situation is dire, and with all due respect for Dr. Lovelock, I do believe there is a chance yet to avoid such a gloomy future. While the threshold is certainly very close, I do not believe we have crossed the point of no return with regard to Global Climate Change. But do not breathe easy. To avoid a disaster such as Dr. Lovelock describes will require us to stop everything we are doing now, and devote all of our efforts—every one of us—to evolving a new lifestyle based on sustainability, remediation, and a healthy stewardship of the planet. "

As he says, "Those who give up hope, give up," as Lovelock, with his devil-take-the-hindermost outlook appears to be proposing.

regards,

Backstop

[Seadragon]

Geez, Backstop, that just seems like a distinction without a difference. I mean, if you say "I'm optimistic because we still have time to do something, only thing is, we have to stop everything right now and focus on this new sustainable way of doing things" that says to me the chances of that are slim to none. Nobody in this country (ok, well, maybe 2%) is doing this or will do it in the near future. The government refuses to talk about peak oil, for pete's sake. The public wants to blame the oil companies. Sorry, I just don't get optimism out of that one...

[Etalon]

What else can you do, Seadragon?

If you say the situation is hopeless, (which it may or may not be), you stop people from doing anything as they believe it is inevitable. Better to say we have a chance if we act now.

[backstop]

Seadragon -

while I'd agree with Etalon's post I'd go further, and say that the situation re. PO & GW is very far from hopeless.

Yes, our GW has started the unlocking of natural carbon banks - the earliest I know of began in '62
with carbon being drawn from peat-bogs due to enzyme action in response to raised atmospheric CO2 - as reported in "Nature" last year.

But, the feedbacks are as yet nowhere near overwhelming the natural carbon sinks - that currently cleanse
about a third of annual fossil fuel & de-forestation emissions from the atmosphere.
If the feedbacks were not curtailed but just allowed to swamp the sinks, then we would be powerless in a "runaway greenhouse".

So, our first priority is achieving global agreement on sufficient emissions control to halt and then reverse the growth of excess atmospheric carbon.

If, despite such an agreement, we land up in a runaway greenhouse, then we would still have a very substantial hope
that before long the Gulf Stream and associated circulation will shut down, tipping the momentum of the climate dynamics into a rapid cooling trend.


From inside America I guess things look pretty bleak with the bandits running the White House, but, in reality
this is Big Oil's last throw, and much of the rest of the world knows it, and keenly awaits the next US president.

In terms of the changes needed I'd be first to dump the idea of "stop everything now" - as without the deisel trucks running
we'd have billions starving in a fortnight. But there is much that we can do very swiftly, without destroying the economy.

To give you just one example of swift action (from Singapore): to minimize power demand they charged a low rate
for a first 'subsistance' tranche of power to each household, a high rate for a second 'luxury' tranche,
and an exorbitant rate for a third 'indulgence' tranche.

Such a policy across industrialized & semi-developed nations could cut power usage by a serious fraction within months,
for the cost of re-organizing billing proceedures. And unlike many energy taxes, this one would not hit the poor hardest.

So, as the saying goes, "While there's life there's hope !"

But, if you find 'hope' too turbulent a ride for steady and effective morale, then I can recommend 'resolution' -
that is, committing to this task for its own sake and regardless of the prospects of success.

Ain't got nuthin' much better to do today anyways . . . .

regards,

Backstop

[Ludi]

How many people here in this thread have stopped what they're doing and gone sustainable? I haven't managed to do it yet, I'm still using coal power.

[Seadragon]

Well, I have to agree that those of us in the US are the ones who have the capacity to change, and if we had a government who's first response to global warming wasn't "global what?" we might be able to make some progress. I guess I just see very little of that kind of conversation occuring in the near future and when peak oil overwhelms us, those crazy environmental standards will be the first to go. It may actually be true that it isn't hopeless at this particular moment, from an environmental/scientific perspective, but the things we need to do require pain and sacrifice, and what's more, assent from the "big players" in American society, and none of those things seem very possible today. However, I well understand that each of us must do what one person can do (one must act as if one had faith, and faith will be given). Ripples in the pond and all that.

Regards,

Seadragon

[Armageddon]

[quote="Ludi"]How many people here in this thread have stopped what they're doing and gone sustainable? I haven't managed to do it yet, I'm still using coal power.[/quote

=========================================

i have recently bought a new ford escape, an ipod, a treo cell phone, and a mini dvd camcorder. I figure, if im gown down, im going down with a bang.

[lakeweb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Etalon', 'W')hat else can you do, Seadragon?

If you say the situation is hopeless, (which it may or may not be), you stop people from doing anything as they believe it is inevitable. Better to say we have a chance if we act now.

[The_Virginian]

I see ASPO's analysis as correct, oil will not last long enough to cause significant climate change.

COAL, is an open question.

OTAY, so why am I not so worried?

With the shorage of oil we are likely to NUKE ourselves into the stone age, and an organic life, for whomever survives.

[The_Virginian]

"See, I'm not one of these people who's worried about everything. The country's full of them now, people walkin' around all day long, every minute of the day, worried about everything!

People are worried about the air, worried about the water, worried about the soil, worried about insecticides, pesticides, food additives, carcinogens, worried about radon gas, worried about asbestos, worried about saving endangered species. Let me tell you about endangered species, alright?

Saving endangered species is just one more arrogant attempt by humans to control nature. It's arrogant meddling. It's what got us into trouble in the first place. Doesn't anybody understand that? Interfering with nature!

Over 90%, way over 90% off all the species that have ever lived on this planet, ever lived, are gone. Whoosh! They're extinct. We didn't kill them all! They just disappeared, that's what nature does! They disappear these days at the rate of 25 a day. And I mean regardless of our behavior.

Irrespective of how we act on this planet, 25 species that are here today, will be gone tomorrow. Let them go gracefully! Leave nature alone! Haven't we done enough?

We're so self important, so self-important. Everybody's gonna save something now. Save the bees! Save the trees! Save the whales! Save those snails! And the greatest arrogance of all - "Save the planet!" What? Are these people kidding me? Save the planet? We haven't even learned how to take care of ourselves yet. We haven't even learned how to take care of one-another, and we're gonna save the planet?

I'm so tired of that stuff. I'm tired of earth day… Besides, there is nothing wrong with the planet. There is nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The people are screwed up. Compared to the people, the planet is doin' great. Been here 4-1/2 billion years. Did you ever think about the arithmetic?

The planet has been here 4-1/2 billion years, we've been here, what, a hundred thousand, maybe two hundred thousand? And we've only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred years verses 4-1/2 billion. And we have the conceit to think that somehow we're a threat? That somehow we're going to put in jeopardy this beautiful little blue-green ball that's just a floatin' around the sun? The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sunspots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles, hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worldwide floods, tidal waves, world wide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages, and we think some plastic bags and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference?

The planet isn't gong anywhere. We are. We're going away. Pack your bags folks, we're going away. And we won't leave much of a trace either. Thank God for that. Maybe a little styrofoam. The planet will be here, and we'll be long gone; just another failed mutation; just another closed-end biological mistake; just another evolutionary cul-de-sac.

The planet will be here for a long, long, long time after we're gone, and it will heal itself. It will cleanse itself cause that's what it does. It's a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it's true that plastic isn't degradable, well the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic!"


- George Carlin

A Godless Shmuck who still has an occasional point!

[Ludi]

Yeah, people keep posting that Carlin routine, but gee whiz, I kinda like humans, being one myself and all, and a lot of my friends are humans...

[The_Virginian]

SO do I.

However I gather that Humans are more in danger than the planet.

As stewards of the ship, we still have to care for it while we are here...however little time that be.

[Ludi]

Yeah, the planet will be fine.

[RacerJace]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..The planet has been here 4-1/2 billion years, we've been here, what, a hundred thousand, maybe two hundred thousand? And we've only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred years verses 4-1/2 billion. And we have the conceit to think that somehow we're a threat?

[VinceG]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Virginian', '[')b] Let me tell you about endangered species, alright?

Saving endangered species is just one more arrogant attempt by humans to control nature. It's arrogant meddling. It's what got us into trouble in the first place. Doesn't anybody understand that? Interfering with nature!

Over 90%, way over 90% off all the species that have ever lived on this planet, ever lived, are gone. Whoosh! They're extinct. We didn't kill them all! They just disappeared, that's what nature does! They disappear these days at the rate of 25 a day. And I mean regardless of our behavior.

Irrespective of how we act on this planet, 25 species that are here today, will be gone tomorrow. Let them go gracefully! Leave nature alone! Haven't we done enough?

[JustinFrankl]

"Godless shmuck" or not, scientist or not, George Carlin's statements are fairly accurate. Humanity is absolutely not a threat to the processes of life on this planet. We are a threat to many species, including our own, but life will go on with or without humans.

During the Permian-Triassic mass extinction, 250 million years ago, about 95% of marine species became extinct, as did about 70% of land species (including plants and animals). For a while after this extinction event, fungal species were the dominant life form. And the Earth eventually regenerated. As it will regenerate after we stop destroying it.

Is there hope? Perhaps that's the wrong question. I think "hope" is a fundamentally bad idea in our world, as it relies on other people to improve your lot in life, to solve your problems. Hope also assumes that the problem can be solved, but not all problems are solvable. Hope also assumes that what is happening is, in fact, a problem; it may only be an opportunity to improve your understanding.

In a very broad sense, one of two things is about to happen, each of which has been unseen ever before in human history. Case One, that 6.5 billion people, given their different environments, beliefs, and understandings, will become sufficiently aligned toward a common goal involving radical changes in economics, government, law, science, spirituality, and social norms in time to avoid widespread suffering and systemic collapse. Or Case Two, that 6.5 billion people will keep doing what they've been doing and will run the train called "Civilization" straight into the side of a mountain, killing many if not most of the passengers.

Based on the widespread incomplete understanding of the ramifications of the problems we are facing concerning the peaking of oil, capitalism vs. conservation, efficiency, thermodynamics, ecology, and sustainability, Case One appears unlikely.

[backstop]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JustinFrankl', ' ')In a very broad sense, one of two things is about to happen, each of which has been unseen ever before in human history. Case One, that 6.5 billion people, given their different environments, beliefs, and understandings, will become sufficiently aligned toward a common goal involving radical changes in economics, government, law, science, spirituality, and social norms in time to avoid widespread suffering and systemic collapse. Or Case Two, that 6.5 billion people will keep doing what they've been doing and will run the train called "Civilization" straight into the side of a mountain, killing many if not most of the passengers.

Based on the widespread incomplete understanding of the ramifications of the problems we are facing concerning the peaking of oil, capitalism vs. conservation, efficiency, thermodynamics, ecology, and sustainability, Case One appears unlikely.

[JustinFrankl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JustinFrankl', ' ')In a very broad sense, one of two things is about to happen, each of which has been unseen ever before in human history. Case One, that 6.5 billion people, given their different environments, beliefs, and understandings, will become sufficiently aligned toward a common goal involving radical changes in economics, government, law, science, spirituality, and social norms in time to avoid widespread suffering and systemic collapse. Or Case Two, that 6.5 billion people will keep doing what they've been doing and will run the train called "Civilization" straight into the side of a mountain, killing many if not most of the passengers.

Based on the widespread incomplete understanding of the ramifications of the problems we are facing concerning the peaking of oil, capitalism vs. conservation, efficiency, thermodynamics, ecology, and sustainability, Case One appears unlikely.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', 'T')o give you just one example of swift action (from Singapore): to minimize power demand they charged a low rate
for a first 'subsistance' tranche of power to each household, a high rate for a second 'luxury' tranche,
and an exorbitant rate for a third 'indulgence' tranche.

Such a policy across industrialized & semi-developed nations could cut power usage by a serious fraction within months,
for the cost of re-organizing billing proceedures. And unlike many energy taxes, this one would not hit the poor hardest.