[Revi]

I think rural may be better than urban if there's problems after the peak. But, who knows? It's hard to tell where is the best place to be. I have adopted the attitude of one day at a time lately. I make plans, but the future is unknowable. We prepare anyway. We just might make it.

[Revi]

I think rural may be better than urban if there's problems after the peak. But, who knows? It's hard to tell where is the best place to be. I have adopted the attitude of one day at a time lately. I make plans, but the future is unknowable. We prepare anyway. We just might make it. I try to tell people, but they couldn't hear me until recently. Now they are starting to understand what I'm saying a little bit. Enough stuff has happened that they are a bit more receptive. Has anyone else noticed this?

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AmericanEmpire', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')ost people are and will be completely unable to adjust to the enormous changes that are coming

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', 'H')eineken, your last post sounded so depressed I hope you're doing ok. It must be hard to think about dying on your isolated farm... are there any people you can bring there to help, maybe build a small community? The isolation could help protect you if you can secure all the things you need. Other than that is it possible to sell?

[crapattack]

Heinekin, sorry if I made you uncomfortable. It certainly seems like your situation is a tough one, especially with the parents. I know because we will be caring for our elderly parents as well on our property. In considering your situation, what about bringing other gay men to you? Does that sound ludicrous? I'm just sure there will be plenty of people trying to escape the cities but can't afford to buy land - maybe your community can really be your community if you know what I mean. Perhaps your partner wouldn't like that, I don't know, but maybe if you invited other couples. Bringing people with the motivation to stay alive, having a something in common and the skills, or willingness to learn, is the basis of the best intentional communities right?

Anyway, it's just an idea. I personally think being a bit remote is an advantage, and if you help be of benefit to the surrounding communities, they will see the benifit of your community. This could be done by finding ways to outreach to them by providing things they need. Trade items, education, seed. Richard Heinburg in "Powerdown" talks about this reciprocal caring as being the best protection as if you benefit them they will work to protect you.

[Ludi]

Heineken, I strongly suggest you do indeed try to start a community of the sort you envision, there are liberal people near you, I guarantee it, you just don't know about them. I can say this with assurance because I live in rural Texas and there are liberal people I meet with regularly, our own little group of weirdoes.

I suggest you get the book "Creating a Life Together" by Diana Leaf Christian, which describes how to create a successful intentional community.

[Liamj]

Thanks ubercynicmeister, was good advice, particularly the 'grin and bear it' part - most ppl will hang themselves if you give them enough rope.


Heinekin: Work on building community on your place by all means, but don't ever slam the door on the neighbours. Is there any sort of community effort that you might/do participate in? In Aus. theres always the Country Fire Authority and i know of more than a few hippies that have won rural acceptance if not intermarriage by volunteering their time to (what all can see is) the wider good. They can not like you, they can think you're weird, bad, or weak, but if they need you, and/or know they can rely on you.. someday someway, you'll need those neighbours.

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Liamj', 'W')ork on building community on your place by all means, but don't ever slam the door on the neighbours. Is there any sort of community effort that you might/do participate in? In Aus. theres always the Country Fire Authority and i know of more than a few hippies that have won rural acceptance if not intermarriage by volunteering their time to (what all can see is) the wider good. Someday someway, you'll need those neighbours.

[Heineken]

Thanks to crapattack (what a handle!) and ludi for your nice comments about my situation. Actually, if I ever started an intentional community on my farm I wouldn't limit it to gays. Without getting too nauseatingly clinical, I'm only marginally "gay" myself---more of a "bi" type who is very strongly physically attracted to women but has had much trouble with their personalities and maintenance co$t$. It just happened that I ended up with a man (in what is currently a nine-year relationship).

crapattack, it's certainly interesting to know that you will be caring for elderly parents on your own country place. Every situation is unique, but I may be able to give you some useful advice if you have any specific questions. I've been doing this for four years now.

Yes, it's isolated here, but you can be just as socially isolated, if not more, in the middle of NYC, where I once briefly lived.

ludi, I will definitely get that book if it's still in print. Wouldn't it be nice if like-minded POers could get together to form such a community? Alas, we're scattered across the globe---for example, you in Texas, me in Virginia, crapattack in Canada. We'd have to have a conference and do a study to decide which place would be best for the group, then the others would have to sell their places and contribute financially to modifying the chosen place. Everyone would have some sort of ownership interest, I'd guess.

Here in Louisa County, VA, is a real honest-to-goodness commune, the rather famous Twin Oaks Community. Here's the link to their Web site, which is interesting to explore:

http://www.twinoaks.org/

Some of the brightest and most sympatico people I've ever met have been members of this Web site, which is a major reason why I hang out here.

[crapattack]

Heinekin, I didn't think my handle would cause such a stir when I chose it actually, but it does seem to cause a bit of a fuss

Thanks for your offer, I may just take you up on that. The parents are approaching 70 now and still pretty healthy, but I know post-crash there will be many things to account for, especially health care. We're hoping (and praying) to have fellow community members around to help us when the time comes, and lucky for us we are friends with 2 GP's.

I'm going to get that book Ludi recommended too, and there is the Intential Community thread in the Planning for the Future discussion too. I've been keeping an eye on that one as well, and the Connect with Peakers thread.

Interesting that you should bring up Twin Oaks, if you can I'd encourage you to connect with them. One of my friends who will be joining us was one of the original members of Twin Oaks, and used to teach others how to set up intentional communities. It's one of the oldest and they have a lot of wisdom on how this can happen. I know she's been a very big help to us.

I sure hope you do set something up, Heineken, because you have an opportunity to try to save yourself and others too who desperately need people with land and a desire to form communities. Feel free to PM me anytime if you want to chat.

[Ludi]

"Creating a Life Together" is available here:

http://www.permacultureactivist.net/boo ... munity.htm


I've not myself had success finding people willing and able to form a community. Most of my friends are older (many extremely old) and settled in their ways. I have one friend wanting to form a community, but the prospect of selling her land closer to the city and buying land closer to me has daunted her for the time being.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', 'H')einekin, I didn't think my handle would cause such a stir when I chose it actually, but it does seem to cause a bit of a fuss

Thanks for your offer, I may just take you up on that. The parents are approaching 70 now and still pretty healthy, but I know post-crash there will be many things to account for, especially health care. We're hoping (and praying) to have fellow community members around to help us when the time comes, and lucky for us we are friends with 2 GP's.

I'm going to get that book Ludi recommended too, and there is the Intential Community thread in the Planning for the Future discussion too. I've been keeping an eye on that one as well, and the Connect with Peakers thread.

Interesting that you should bring up Twin Oaks, if you can I'd encourage you to connect with them. One of my friends who will be joining us was one of the original members of Twin Oaks, and used to teach others how to set up intentional communities. It's one of the oldest and they have a lot of wisdom on how this can happen. I know she's been a very big help to us.

I sure hope you do set something up, Heineken, because you have an opportunity to try to save yourself and others too who desperately need people with land and a desire to form communities. Feel free to PM me anytime if you want to chat.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '"')Creating a Life Together" is available here:

http://www.permacultureactivist.net/boo ... munity.htm


I've not myself had success finding people willing and able to form a community. Most of my friends are older (many extremely old) and settled in their ways. I have one friend wanting to form a community, but the prospect of selling her land closer to the city and buying land closer to me has daunted her for the time being.

[Ludi]

25 acres is certainly enough to set up a community, especially in Virginia, such a wonderful growing climate. One acre per person is plenty for survival purposes, 25 people would be a biggish intentional community as these things go. The main difficulty I've encountered is how to deal with equity in ownership and risk. The legal risks are enormous but must be taken into account.

In spite of this, I do anticipate the possibility of a small community forming after times get tough, and so I've been trying to plan accordingly. I have only 20 acres in Central Texas, a difficult grwoing climate.

[crapattack]

Heinekin, ha ha, yes, it's funny how people react to certain things. I thought 'crapattack' was a funny and slightly milder reference to Kunstler's "shit storm", but yes, it does make people have to write "crap". I find this amusing, but I am a strange child.. I do get a kick out of your handle too. You are at least a classy "beerman", not some cheapass coors or bud. Thanks for your kind words

I agree with Ludi, 25 acres is plenty. We'd love to get that but we'll probably only be able to afford max. 15 unless we manage to get more folks to come on board, so far a few of my friends want too but would prefer to stay in the city working at their jobs until the last minute. They are quite happy to join us on our land if it is set up, but I am having problems convincing them to leave now. My partner and I also have to raise the cash so it's a race against time really. It's harder than h*ll to actually get like minded people together. I certainly do want to get a couple growning seasons in before the crash comes, stockpile seeds, set up solar -- there is much to be done, can you hear the panicky edge? I don't know if we have time, but we will try.

As far as the community structure goes, yes, it seems a major point to consider ownership. The ones who buy shares often think than have more right to have a say politically than any who are subsidized, and this is apparently the source of much division unless it is handled properly - according to my expert. You can set up rules governing this if you do want to have a cerain number of spaces for subsidized members. Some groups handle this by assessing the finances of new members and asking them to pay an entrance fee relative to their ability. To me this sounds very fair indeed. Certain skills are very valuable to have, handymen, doctors, cooks, sewers, etc. and you want to have these people even if they can't pay, so this setup allows you to do this.

I think one of the most important skills/trades in the new era will be the spirit maker. If you can set up a good still you'll be loved for miles around and always have something to trade . As "beerman" you're perfect for the role.

[crapattack]

Thanks for the link Ludi, much appreciated.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'ve not myself had success finding people willing and able to form a community. Most of my friends are older (many extremely old) and settled in their ways. I have one friend wanting to form a community, but the prospect of selling her land closer to the city and buying land closer to me has daunted her for the time being.

[Heineken]

Ludi: Actually our growing climate has its tradeoffs. Since it's very humid (and hot) from May to September, plant diseases and insect pressure (esp. Japanese beetles) can be severe. Also, we have what seems to me increasingly bad droughts. A few years ago (2002, I think), it scarcely rained all summer and wells were going dry. Last summer I wasted six whole weeks carrying buckets of water to my fruit trees.

Ideally there would be enough land (space) to dissipate potential and realized interpersonal frictions and conflicts. The Twin Oaks Community has over 400 acres---enough room to ramble off and spend the day by yourself, if you want.

Yeah, I've had my share of trouble getting along with people (and not all their fault, either). Getting enmeshed in a community like that is a frightening (as well as exciting) prospect. I'd have to be really motivated to take on legal and other risk, but as I say, PO could do it.

crapattack: I'm beginning to share your sense of urgency. I once seriously considered trying to move my family to a more sustainable setup than the one we have here (it has several key deficiencies in that regard, such as a large, ranch-style, energy-hog house with a vast roof that recently cost $10,000 to reshingle). But I think such a move would kill my parents. I'm doing what I can to adapt the place (such as putting in a manually operated well), but a lot of the money is locked up in the real estate, and a lot of the rest is controlled by my parents, who are mainly focused on living the next day and thus have relatively little interest in the subject of PO and collapse. Plus, my dad is a disabled veteran and needs to be near a VA med center, which greatly limits geographic flexibility. It's all quite frustrating for me. When my parents are gone I will have to decide whether to stay here and to try to bring in some good people to form some sort of community, or to move elsewhere (assuming there is still a viable real estate market, of course). But I have the sneaking feeling that events are going to overwhelm any plans I might make. The time to plan, and to act on those plans, is approximately NOW. Later it will be too late.

[Ludi]

Heineken, I certainly empathise with the money situation. I have extremely limited funds with which to prepare for eventual hard times; it's very frightening and frustrating.

[AmericanEmpire]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') have extremely limited funds with which to prepare for eventual hard times; it's very frightening and frustrating.

[Heineken]

My God, don't do that, AE. I or someone like me will surely have space for you---and need you---on country properties like mine, assuming you're prepared to pull your weight. I'm serious.