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Changing the world :- The Commanding Heights.

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Tip of the Iceberg

Unread postby grabby » Wed 18 Jan 2006, 03:01:53

The more laws that are passed, the more unforeseen problems that arise.

We are our own worst enemy.
Last edited by grabby on Thu 09 Feb 2006, 00:32:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Tip of the Iceberg

Unread postby Doly » Wed 18 Jan 2006, 06:52:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('grabby', 'A')ll of mans unsolvable problems started out as the SOLUTION to other solvable problems.


No, we started having unsolvable problems from the beginning. Death was always there.

Then we created taxes. :-D
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Re: Peak Oil: The Tip of the Iceberg

Unread postby BlueGhost » Wed 18 Jan 2006, 17:57:41

Ludi: When it comes to the question of surviving external events such as asteroids, floods and hurricanes. I think modern society wins.

Doly, we are talking about societies not people here. There are no physical laws which deem that societies must die.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Tip of the Iceberg

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 18 Jan 2006, 18:08:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlueGhost', 'L')udi: When it comes to the question of surviving external events such as asteroids, floods and hurricanes. I think modern society wins.


Really? Because it was the tribal peoples who knew the tsunami was coming and got out of the way.

I don't know how one can say "modern society wins" when "modern society" has been around for such a short time.

"Modern society wins" kinds of sums up the whole point of view of a lot of people though, even in spite of evidence that we aren't "winning." Our cultural memes tell us we MUST win, that we are destined to win, and anyone who lives a different way is just stupid and behind the times.

Yep, we're winning alright, uh huh.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Tip of the Iceberg

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 18 Jan 2006, 21:22:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlueGhost', 'M')onty I do feel abit miffed that you merged my thread on 'how education sysytems would need to be changed' into this dross.
Ah never mind, I guess if no one bites I'll start another one in the off topic board, I hope that won't be too disparate for you? (Yes the 1st post made sense here, but I put it in its own thread because I was hoping to develop a discusison.)


I thought it was quite appropos for this thread. It has started a discussion where the last one left off. Location only counts in real estate. Here it is content that catches the fish.

When I have a moment, I will weigh in. I'm pretty good bait. :-D

On second thought, I'll split it back to your own thread, how's that for fair?
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
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Re: Peak Oil: The Tip of the Iceberg

Unread postby MicroHydro » Thu 19 Jan 2006, 01:23:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raxozanne', 'C')ulture and religion can often override evolutionary programming.
For example: Buddhist Monks. Religion has overriden the monks impulse to procreate.


Bad example. Recall the AIDS epidemic among monks in Thailand? Their reproductive urges are very much intact, as they are in Catholic priests. Either penetration or being penetrated is an urge that ideologies have failed to supress.
"The world is changed... I feel it in the water... I feel it in the earth... I smell it in the air... Much that once was, is lost..." - Galadriel
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Re: Peak Oil: The Tip of the Iceberg

Unread postby Doly » Thu 19 Jan 2006, 05:08:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MicroHydro', '
')Bad example. Recall the AIDS epidemic among monks in Thailand? Their reproductive urges are very much intact, as they are in Catholic priests. Either penetration or being penetrated is an urge that ideologies have failed to supress.


Hey, it doesn't work for everybody. But the truth is that some people are celibate by choice, for one or another ideological reason. My point is, of course there are limits to how much you can go against human instincts, but it's surprising how far you can actually go.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Tip of the Iceberg

Unread postby BlueGhost » Thu 19 Jan 2006, 17:17:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlueGhost', 'L')udi: When it comes to the question of surviving external events such as asteroids, floods and hurricanes. I think modern society wins.


Really? Because it was the tribal peoples who knew the tsunami was coming and got out of the way.

I don't know how one can say "modern society wins" when "modern society" has been around for such a short time.

"Modern society wins" kinds of sums up the whole point of view of a lot of people though, even in spite of evidence that we aren't "winning." Our cultural memes tell us we MUST win, that we are destined to win, and anyone who lives a different way is just stupid and behind the times.

Yep, we're winning alright, uh huh.


*sigh*

I don't really see how you can argue with my basic point here.
You disagree that humanity should try and survive forever?

The fundemental point for me is:
More technology, more power, more options are always a good thing from the point of view of a responsible entity. While tribal individuals survived better I didn't see them being able to get help from half way around the globe via hellicopter.

Yes I agree society as it stands sucks - it isn't a responsible entity.
But, while chances are we will regress (lose technology, power and options). This is a bad thing as even with our current knowledge we already know of several external events which could and in all likleyhood will eventually wipe us out.

The debate I would LIKE to be having is: what needs to be done and can be done with schooling to produce people who would benecessary components of a responsible, sustainable and better society.

Are you just being contrarian for the merry hell of it?

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Re: Peak Oil: The Tip of the Iceberg

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 19 Jan 2006, 17:44:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlueGhost', '
')More technology, more power, more options are always a good thing from the point of view of a responsible entity.


See, here is where we have a fundamental difference of viewpoint. "More" cannot ALWAYS be a good thing in a finite world.

Appropriate technology, yes; simply "more" technology, not helpful.

We are rapidly diminishing our options with our constant insistence on MORE.

I may seem "contrarian" to you, and perhaps I am contrarian, but it is because I see things very differently from you, apparently.

Regarding education, I share many of author Daniel Quinn's ideas about it:

http://www.ishmael.com/Education/Writin ... ling.shtml
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Re: Changing the world :- The Commanding Heights.

Unread postby BlueGhost » Thu 19 Jan 2006, 20:45:36

I'm not suggesting we USE more technology, just that we have more technological capabilities available. Not that we necessarily build more stuff but that we have more inventions.

It is always better to have greater capabilities - even if you don't use them.
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Re: Changing the world :- The Commanding Heights.

Unread postby BlueGhost » Thu 19 Jan 2006, 20:59:57

Well colour me confused.

You do have beliefs about education but you'd rather snipe at me for some strawman modern society is perfect belief I don't hold... How odd.

Daniel Quinn has a rather large range of ideas about education judging from your link. Which bits in particular do you share?
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Re: Changing the world :- The Commanding Heights.

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 19 Jan 2006, 21:03:38

I didn't snipe at you about your beliefs, I sniped at our culture. You are confused.

I don't understand what you say about inventions that aren't used. If something isn't built or used, it isn't technology, it's only an idea. Tribal peoples typically don't use technology they don't need. You seem to be suggesting we need technology we don't use. This confuses me.

So we're both confused.
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Re: Changing the world :- The Commanding Heights.

Unread postby BlueGhost » Thu 19 Jan 2006, 21:23:46

Technology also refers to the knowledge of how to build something as well as an artifact which has been built.
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Re: Changing the world :- The Commanding Heights.

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 19 Jan 2006, 21:52:13

Okey-doodle, but if it's never been built, it's not technology, it's just a theory...

What the hell....

So we have a lot of ideas, good for us. Does that somehow make us materially better or even morally better than others?

Mind you, I'm not anti-technology, I'm just anti-the-idea-that-our-culture-is the-destiny-of-Man. Or some such crap.
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