[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Madpaddy', 'W')ell FIAT traditionally had a bad rep with quality. FIAT used to mean Fix It Again Tomorrow. There are a lot of people carriers on the road here in Ireland including the Opel Zafira, Renault Grand Scenic and Peugeot 307 Spacewagon. The diesel versions of these all get in the 35-50 mpg bracket.

My old petrol FIAT multipla only got 22 mpg.

Really, I think it is criminal that US cars are so inefficient. We pay the equivalnet of $6 a gallon (imperial = 4.54 litres) in Ireland. If US consumers paid that then peoples mindset would change. I think that the US market would react well to these new diesel people carriers.

BTW, Peugeot are bringing out a diesel hybred in the next 3 years. Hope society is around to see it.

[Specop_007]

Who says size doesnt matter?

[NevadaGhosts]

Hey Specop_007,

Is that your SUV?

I think any view that is too extremist is not good. Reality is somewhere in the middle. People should have the right to drive whatever they want, as long as they are willing to pay the high price. But at some point in the next few years, it won`t matter what you drive, because gasoline will become too expensive to fill up or simply unavailable. All of this arguing is really pointless. I think people here should worry more about the coming resource wars that will affect almost everyone on this planet. THAT`S THE THING TO WORRY ABOUT. We have already passed the point of no return. Drink lots of beer while it`s still available in the stores.

[Liamj]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'W')ho says size doesnt matter?

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Liamj', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'W')ho says size doesnt matter?

[Liamj]

Is that enough venting for everybody? Please see your healer/barman/dog if further rage occurs.

Agree with Madpaddys "no problem with SUVs if..", so how to match up vehicle size to use? How about smarter taxation: here in Aus. SUVs still get an import tax discount because forty years ago they were all headed for farm/mining/trades use.
So why not make the tax discount conditional upon post code (already done for income tax allowances for remote areas), or business registration?
The SUV tax discount is a golden example of a 'perverse policy', fixing it c/should be in the first wave of real measures my country takes to adapt to reality.

My fav. constructive point so far is Rockdoc's 10-year car handcuff, to reduce the turnover of cars. Will obviously cost some jobs in new-car manufacturing but will create jobs in increased maintainence and parts. We're going to need fixing-skills much more than Fordist making-skills anyway.

Waiting for price to push up efficiency assumes
a. that people make rational choices,
b. that the market acts in time and chooses to go after continually poorer (those that can't afford new gas prices) drivers, &
c. that consumers wont continue to be insulated from supply-limit effects on price by war, fraud (sale of US Treasuries, expansion of M3) and other coercion (sell it to us or else).
It'll definately happen in the end, but assuming it will happen in time with current markets & investors is negligence with intent (to maintain own immediate comfort).

[Ayoob]

I'm looking at picking one up right now. It's useful for hauling stuff, towing trailers, etc. Why the hate?

If I end up using it inefficiently, maybe to take my kids to soccer practice, why do you have a problem with that? If I can afford the gas and that's what I want to do, why should you or anyone else say I can't do as I please?

Some people take vacations in Hawaii... do you have a problem with that? They don't NEED to go, they just want to. I'm not entirely sure that anyone needs to make more than $30K a year... should we shut down anyone who makes more? Nobody really NEEDS a computer to post on message boards, right?

[Munqi]

I think it has something to do with that catastrophe thats around the corner. What was it called again..? Oh yeah, peak oil.

[Arsenal]

Because they run over puppies.

I think they are very useful for many things and honestly nobody should dictate who gets to use one. That does not mean the problem(peakoil) will go away but if you can afford it then no one is stopping you.

Less MPG with more people driving them just means society will end up crashing into the wall at 500 MPH.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'D')ynamite is a useful tool to extract teeth. Do you need dynamite to do the job? Nah. Beside there are externalities.

Let's make believe your head is the planet. You light off the charge and the cavity, the tooth, and all of Arkansas (for instance) gets blown to smithereens. Now without Arkansas the rest of the planet will do fine (even better. Right?) but without your tooth and the rest of your face, the head can't eat and so it dies.

So now imagine that your SUV is the dynamite. Why not drive a compact and rent a truck when you really need it. And wrap the kids in bubble wrap for crash protection.

[Northern_Pike]

Personally, I think it should be our personal freedom to drive our SUVs right into a blitzkrieg crash! My only real two hopes for the future would be for life to maintain the status quo (which peak oil will not allow), or a hyper fast crash into a return of the 1700's.

Life is fine as it is now. Drive to work in the SUV, stop at the super market on the way home. Upon arrival in our warm, gas heated home, cook up some tasty vittles on the gas stove. Watching some T.V. and surfing the net is cool afterwards. Maintaining this standard of life would be grand! Using alternative energies and technologies to change our ways, yet maintaining a high standard of life, and our freedoms, would suit me to no end! But, it won't happen and we all should know why.

A new life, a return to a much simpler life, as lived by folks in the 1700's would be great too! Farm a plot of land. Defend it from the wild savages (no not Indians, rather those zombie-like urban bandits that dwell in what is left of the cities, and who make raids into the countryside). Then I'll drive my horse team to the windmill to sell my grain. Stop by my good friend the blacksmith's shop on the way home to trade some of my secret heirloom tomatoes for a new garden rake he is going to make for me. Check in with my wife to see how the soap she will be making is coming along. Finally off to the river to gather my fishing sons so we can chop a couple cords of wood together before the sunset, so we may heat our modest cabin in the days to come. Life this simple would be awesome and may someday be upon us.

Those two ends of the spectrum laid out, I think it best if it goes as quickly as possible from one extreme to the other. I don't hope for the massive die off and suffering, but neither do I wish for it to be a slow grind into decades, even centuries of suffering.

A return to a slower and simpler life could take a long, slow, and painful amount of time. I would rather be dead quick (and a fast crash might give good odds to this), than to suffer through the depletion caused restrictions, enforcements, and rationings of our foods, lives, and freedoms.

So, yes, I say drive those SUVs as fast as you can. Buy two of them. Drive one and leave the other one at home running in the driveway. Life is all about the excesses. Lets burn it all up as fast as possible people! Because, my preps are coming along nicely and I think a slow, prolonged crash will be nearly intolerable. Revisiting the depression era, only worse this time, I do not look forward to.

- Pike

[alokin]

Why do I hate SUV's? What a question! They heat up the planet twice as much as an average car, do SUV owners own the planet? They pollute the air in our cities much more than a efficient car, do the SUV owners pay for our damaged health? They are much more likely to be fatal in accidents with pedestrians or cyclists. It's not the SUV owner losing their children, husbands wives.

If you don't live in a rural area and use the SUV to haul things around then there is no acceptable reason owning one. It's ignorance. The only reason which I can understand is the safety aspect, but it's the SUV's which made the roads unsafer.

Anyway I guess this period is over, wait for a year!

[Pops]

I don't, they paid for my farm.

[Ludi]

I dislike them (not hate) because they are very big and take up a lot of room on the road and parking lots, and block my view when I drive in my small car. They endanger drivers in small cars because often SUV drivers don't see smaller vehicles.

I prefer small cars.

Regarding hauling things, we haul stuff for our small farm and business with a very small 1965 Datsun pickup truck, approx 27 mpg.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'D')ynamite is a useful tool to extract teeth. Do you need dynamite to do the job? Nah. Beside there are externalities.

Let's make believe your head is the planet. You light off the charge and the cavity, the tooth, and all of Arkansas (for instance) gets blown to smithereens. Now without Arkansas the rest of the planet will do fine (even better. Right?) but without your tooth and the rest of your face, the head can't eat and so it dies.

So now imagine that your SUV is the dynamite. Why not drive a compact and rent a truck when you really need it. And wrap the kids in bubble wrap for crash protection.

[AgentR]

Some hardware stores have a truck out front you can rent by the hour to drag your stuff home.

To the question, I don't think I hate SUV's. Haven't owned one in a long time though. Just not sure you really get the bang you hope for with one. They're like a minivan, but half as comfortable; they're like a pickup truck, but half as useful.

I have a little Ranger sized pickup. I've never come across a situation where an SUV would work better; and I use it all the time for stuff that an SUV would be less than wonderful for. For dragging people around, a car or minivan (depending on special requirements) is just plain better.

Apparently there is a subset of Americans that think driving an SUV grants them some sort of status; that status usually gets lumped in my head as, "I hate my own money." But thats another story entirely.

[Revi]

I think SUV's will fall of their own weight. They aren't any safer it turns out. Check out High and Mighty. It turns out that they are way less safe than a sedan because they turn over and have truck chassis that don't have any crumple zone.

It's interesting that some people are clinging to them. They were the status symbol of the 90's, but they are way out of fashion now.

It's hard to disentangle your personality from the car you drive.

Some people feel like enormous inefficient vehicles.

[mgibbons19]

I never could understand the anti-SUV thing on peak oil.

The whole city infrastructure that requires one car per adult for daily use is the problem.

The industrial food system requiring 30 calories of oil input for each calorie consumed (or whatever the ratio is) is the problem.

The entirely understandable desire of 1/3 of the world's population in India and China to have the same livestyle you and I do is the problem.

To pretend that if we all drove prii would make a difference is to fundamentally miss the point. If it makes you feel smart, great, but it's a band-aid on a bullet hole.