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THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Too good to be true? or not? Reverse Depolymerization

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Fri 23 Sep 2005, 00:38:46

Was forwarded this by a friend, quoted from:
Changing-World-Technologies-Palmer9apr05

8O

Q
Mr. Palmer: Is there anything specific that you know to be inaccurate or misleading about our story on turkey fuel?
-- Dan Goodgame, managing editor, Fortune Small Business (FSB)

A
Dan: First of all, when I discuss these bogus claims I am not restricting myself to your article alone. These snake oil salesmen have been peddling their little story thru a number of media starting with Discover magazine in May 2003. I have been pointing out to anyone who will listen how fraudulent it all is ever since then.

This deception starts with the ignorance of the American public who have bought the convenient story that there is such a thing as garbage. In fact there are ten million different kinds of products that become excess. They are all radically different. But the public chooses to believe that it can all be summed under the rubric of garbage and once you do that, all those radically different inputs have now suddenly become the same thing. Then we are fed the delusion that all we need to do is "get rid of it". It doesn't really matter how. We have had serious suggestions that we can fill up the Grand Canyon with it, cause it to disappear in molten salts, in plasma fusion devices and in garbage treatment plants called Materials Recovery Facilities. Or put it all in rocket ships headed for outer space. All of these proposals that got into trials share some important characteristics. They make huge profits for the garbage industry and the public pays up front for all the costs. Now along comes one more scheme for playing on the gullibility of a public that is so dumb it actually believes that a complex technological society, such as ours, can rip and strip the earth of all its resources, use them transiently, then somehow destroy them all, and still continue to leave a thriving planet for future generations. As though the earth is some kind of a magic lamp we can rub and the genie will continue to bestow upon us any gift we request. This concept is idiotic, and any company that seeks to effectuate the "getting rid of" part of this scheme is selling a bill of goods leading to planetary suicide. But this may not be sufficiently specific to your article to satisfy you.

I will back up to the beginning and pick apart the very heading of the article that began this all in Discover. It began with the heading "Anything into Oil" and proceeded in the article to flesh this out so: "The process is designed to handle almost any waste product imaginable, including turkey offal, tires, plastic bottles, harbor-dredged muck, old computers, municipal garbage, cornstalks, paper-pulp effluent, infectious medical waste, oil-refinery residues, even biological weapons such as anthrax spores. " Now in your article, you, or the claimants, hoping no doubt to have a prayer of passing the giggle test, have backed off a bit by only saying this much: "The company says its process works on tires, various hazardous wastes, and plastic as well as heavy metals. " Most emphatically none of this can pass the giggle test but let me ask you, do you understand what is being said here? You are saying that this company has a process which can turn steel into oil (just to select one of the more obvious idiocies). Do you know that steel is almost a pure element, namely iron, which no chemical process can convert to carbon? Are you familiar with the alchemist's search for transmutation in which they tried to turn base metals into gold? At least they didn't turn base metals into carbon and hydrogen, which is pretty much what oil is. This conversion just happens to contravene the laws of physics as presently understood. Is that a good enough indictment of the frauds being perpetrated by these PR mavens?

Now let's look a little further, to the subheading "Technological savvy could turn 600 million tons of turkey guts and other waste into 4 billion barrels of light Texas crude each year ". Apply a bit of that skepticism that journalism once relied on. How many pounds is 600 million tons. Multiply 600,000,000 by 2000 to get 1200 billion pounds. Now lets look at the oil. Depending on your definition of barrel, one of them weighs 300 to 400 pounds. So multiply 4 billion by 300 and you get 1200 billion pounds. What a strange coincidence! These phoneys say they can turn every pound of mixed water, dirt, rocks, paper, steel, acetone, tars, polyethylene, concrete (and oh, yes, turkey scraps too) into one pound of - are you ready for this - not just oil, not just a grease derivative, but light Texas crude. The loaves and fishes story has now been left in the dust. Jesus must be biting his nails with regret that he didn't think of this.

Consider now the thrust of the article as it seeks to motivate such legerdemain. How is this magical trick to be done? Why, with thermal depolymerization! Surely any word with seven syllables has got to be capable of practically anything. Not only are we going to hit all of this mixed mass with seven syllables, we are going to mimic in minutes, the very process that the poor, ineffective earth takes millions of years to carry out, namely the conversion of turkey guts into petroleum. Did I hear right? These people have become experts on the origins of petroleum, a topic which is energetically debated by real scientists? Not only that, the process which forms petroleum in the earth is now revealed to be none other than thermal depolymerization. I don't know the chemical reactions that produce petroleum, but given the complex molecules and polymers in petroleum, I would have thought they would include the very opposite concept, synthesis and polymerization, not depolymerization. However, how sexy would it be to claim that you are producing an oil by a process having nothing in common with natural processes?

I could go on forever in this vein, but let me deal with the heart of the claims, in every publication I have read on this subject, including yours. It is the drumbeat of wonder that pervades the writing, the notion that this is something unique and previously unknown. Do you know what is being described here? A mountain of turkey guts, consisting of protein, water, grease, saccharides, bones and more is being subjected to steam. Out of all this, the grease is melted, steamed out, and collected. All the rest of it is left over. Some protein may be actually depolymerized leaving amino acids or just protein fragments. Most everything else is probably unchanged. As a pure guess, I would guess that 90% of the mass passes thru without significant change. Feathers, bones, dirt, are not going to be affected and if they are, or were, their breakdown products don't even resemble oil (excuse me, Texas light crude).

Let me speak to the attitude of marvel you surround this trivial operation with. This is something I learned to do from my mother and my guess is you did too. How many times have I put a turkey or chicken carcass into a pot of boiling water, cooled it down and skimmed off the grease? Is this a revolutionary technological breakthrough in your book?

But this is different you say. This is depolymerization. Can you explain to me what the polymers are that we are talking about here? Since you are not chemists yourselves, did it ever occur to you to actually ask a technically competent scientist what chemical process was being described? Obviously not, or you would never have written your silly article.

I have no idea whether all of that investment, and million dollar grant and plant building portion of the article is based on any reality whatsoever. I personally don't believe a word of it, but I base that only on my core belief that the companies and investors mentioned could not possibly be so gullible as to be able to be fooled by transparently impossible claims. But maybe I am wrong. The person who is charged with knowing, with actually investigating these claims is the author. I doubt that she did any of that.

Let me finish with one qualification. I have no doubt that this absurdly wasteful society is capable of producing mountains of animal trimmings with no plan whatsoever for further handling it. I believe that someone could put into place a plan to steam the mixed animal waste and extract the oils from it, for what that could be worth. I doubt that the energy value of the recovered oil would be even close to the energy input required to recover it. But that is why scientists who can do energy calculations are hired to do them. I have read a ton of publicity emanating from this company and I have never seen a shred of a careful calculation of anything. All I read is openmouthed, gee-whiz adulation of any claim these people put out. I have never seen any report by anyone that suggested they had seen any machinery actually depolymerizing anything. Until some unbiased, skeptical investigator, not awed by pie-in-the-sky claims, tests out and calculates theoretical yields and inspects machinery, inputs, and outputs, I will remain a total skeptic.

-- Paul Palmer, PhD.
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Re: Too good to be true? or not?

Unread postby Hermes » Fri 23 Sep 2005, 02:01:25

Well that was a useless rant!

This Paul Palmer seems to have taken the process and attempted to simplify it and heckle it into nonexistence. Sure: those numbers he mentioned didn't add up, and that may be a journalist's embelishments upon the process...or it may be a marketing person talking junk. I would have been far more impressed if he'd taken the results that the company claims it gets and proved that they are lying.

As it is he just took a great big dump on the process but didn't seem to back up his statements with any data. I wonder what his agenda is...?
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Re: Too good to be true? or not?

Unread postby Caoimhan » Fri 23 Sep 2005, 17:07:40

I agree... he shows his own ignorance when he tries to characterize TDP as merely steaming the fats out of the turkey offal, leaving behind the proteins, feathers, bones, etc... relatively intact.

Quite the opposite is true. All the hydrocarbons (including the proteins) in the offal are converted to short hydrocarbon chains (similar to light, sweet crude). Non hydrocarbon minerals are separated, as is water.

It doesn't seem so mysterious to me.

The cool thing, is that it should work with any hydrocarbon material. Plastics should also break down.
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Re: Add one more to the 101 uses for a dead cat

Unread postby OneLoneClone » Fri 11 Nov 2005, 20:07:27

HUSKER DU LYRICS

"How to Skin a Cat"

We are starting a cat ranch and taking one hundred thousand cats
Each cat will have twelve kittens a year
The catskins will sell for thirty cents each
One hundred men could skin five thousand cats a day
We could be dealing a profit of over ten thousand dollars
But what should we feed the cats?
We will start a rat ranch next door with a million rats
The rats will be twelve times faster than the cats
So we can have more rats to feed each day for each cat
But what should we feed the rats?
We will feed the ratsThe carcases of the cats
After they have been skinned
Now get this!
We feed the rats to the cats and the cats to the rats
And get the catskins for nothing
We feed the rats to the cats and the cats to the rats
And get the catskins for nothing
We feed the rats to the cats and the cats to the rats
And get the catskins for nothing
We feed the rats the carcases of the cats
After they have been skinned
We feed the rats to the cats and the cats to the rats
And get the catskins for nothing
Rats to the cats and the cats to the rats
And get the catskins for nothing
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Waste Oils and Plastics into Diesel

Unread postby piper » Tue 27 Dec 2005, 07:09:20

Greetings All

I wonder if this topic has been raised before ?.. in light if such technologies as http://www.globalfinest.com/tech

It is not the answer to Peak Oil, but it may help soften the enevitable blow?
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Re: Waste Oils and Plastics into Diesel

Unread postby basil_hayden » Tue 27 Dec 2005, 11:57:16

It's been covered, search for thermal depolymerization. The plan on this board is to throw all the dead bodies into the rig and drive around on the entrails, in the spirit of Soylent Green. I think it has some promise, especially if I could get a government check for my corpse.
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TCP+Big Oil partnership?

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 02 Jan 2006, 10:37:33

Reveiwing the RES web page URL I came across the following statement
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')color=#FF0000]
Petroleum, Coal, Shale, Tar Sands
The Thermal Conversion Process (TCP) converts heavy crude oil, coal, shale and tar sands along with waste materials from tank bottoms, coal tars and asphaltine residues into light condensable oil, gases and graphite-type carbon. TCP will be a carbon sink for these industries whose futures depend on addressing carbon sequestration issues by improving on yields of material dug up or extracted from the ground..

CWT has developed a unique technology which provides products that help to “bridge the gap” between the petroleum industry and the renewable energy sectors. Our process does not make the petroleum industry obsolete. On the contrary, it accesses and utilizes the petroleum infrastructure. The products produced are part of the earth’s natural “carbon currency and element recycling.” Any organic material from renewable sources can be processed without separation in the TCP bio-refinery. TCP uses standard industrial refinery equipment to convert endless supplies of waste materials into fuels, specialty chemicals and clean water. These fuels and products can be used to provide power for electricity and steam for manufacturing purposes. TCP provides a high quality petroleum product which still needs additional refinery support for the creation of specialized products. It allows for the continued use of pipelines and energy stations. TCP has not been viewed by petroleum companies as a competitor or potential threat, rather the process has been embraced by petroleum companies as complementary to existing systems, and discussions are currently under way with petroleum companies for joint undertakings.
[/color]

So are we really going to see an RES/Oil Giant partnership or is this all fluff? CWT claims they can take in heavy sour crude and convert it into 74% Deisel 2, 3 and 4. That would be a better ROI than any of the existing refineries if all you need is diesel fuel, which is much more common in the EU than in the USA.

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Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: TCP+Big Oil partnership?

Unread postby Hegel » Mon 02 Jan 2006, 13:11:48

Hmm, wonder what catalysts they might use ...

Smells fishy.
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The end of the turkey parts plant?

Unread postby Leanan » Tue 24 Jan 2006, 12:44:50

It seemed like a sure thing three years ago. But last month, the plant was closed because of the foul odor it emitted. And now it looks like it may never re-open:

http://www.longmontfyi.com/Local-Story.asp?id=5842

Not just because of the odor. It just didn't work as well as they'd hoped.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Innovation notwithstanding, RES’s problems extend beyond odors and lawsuits.

The company expected to spend $15 million building the Carthage plant, but the facility cost $40 million, $5 million of which came from a federal grant.

RES also hoped to hold production costs to $15 a barrel, but some reports estimate the company has needed more than five times that to make a barrel of oil.
Last edited by Ferretlover on Sat 21 Mar 2009, 08:57:08, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged with THE Turkey Oil Plant Thread.
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Re: The end of the turkey parts plant?

Unread postby Eli » Tue 24 Jan 2006, 13:38:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')RES also hoped to hold production costs to $15 a barrel, but some reports estimate the company has needed more than five times that to make a barrel of oil.


:o :o :o :o :o :wink: :cry:

I guess that idea won't work until oil goes up and people decided that is better to out up with the smell of a dead animal and be able to drive.


Of course they have to transport the chicken parts to get there and gather them up so I doubt they will ever get the costs to be lower than a barrel of oil.
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Re: The end of the turkey parts plant?

Unread postby PrairieMule » Tue 24 Jan 2006, 19:28:09

Might be acceptable in the south if hot spam is byproduct of turkey oil fuel instead of smog. Hot Dogs anyone?
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Re: The end of the turkey parts plant?

Unread postby elroy » Tue 24 Jan 2006, 21:48:48

Since they use extreme pressure and heat, I wonder.. how do they generate this heat and pressure ? If they use natural gas or oil, then with rising prices it's no wonder it's costing them more.
One way or another, laws of thermodynamics still apply.
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Re: The end of the turkey parts plant?

Unread postby markam » Tue 24 Jan 2006, 22:24:53

And I was so sure that 20 million barrels/day of liquid chicken guts was going to be the answer.

Oh well, maybe somebody will find a way to turn cigarette butts into oil.
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Re: The end of the turkey parts plant?

Unread postby Leanan » Tue 24 Jan 2006, 23:52:25

I think the idea was that the oil the plant created would provide the energy to run the plant. Dunno what went wrong. Maybe the EROEI wasn't what they'd expected.
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Re: The end of the turkey parts plant?

Unread postby hotsacks » Wed 25 Jan 2006, 00:00:51

This little beauty puts the whole boondoogle in perspective.A classic.

http://www.mindfully.org/Technology/200 ... 9apr05.htm
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The turkey parts plant

Unread postby Leanan » Tue 07 Mar 2006, 19:10:03

I just got my April Discover. The cover blurb says, "Anything into oil! It works: Recycled Waste Is the The Future of Fuel."

Yup, it's an article about that turkey waste plant. (They are now calling the process "thermal conversion," not "thermal depolymerization.") The actual article is not as optimistic as the cover blurb. Hopefully Discover will put it in the public section of their Web site when the April issue goes online.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ') ...Appel looks wearier than he did when Discover broke the news about his company's technology (see "Anything Into Oil," May 2003). Back then, when the process was still experimental, Appel predicted that the Carthage plant would crank out oil for about $15 a barrel and rack up profits from day one. But the plant was delayed by construction problems, and federal subsidies were postponed. After it started up, a foul odor angered town residents, leading to a temporary shutdown in December 2005. Production costs turned out to be $80 a barrel, meaning that for most of the plant's working life Appel has lost about $40 per barrel. As recently as last April, he feared the whole operation might implode.


But he's since gotten $100 million in private funding and $17 million in government grants. He hopes to install more scrubbers to deal with the odor problem and restart soon, hopefully actually turning a profit this time.

Why has it been so difficult? "Basically, everything has been more complex and expensive than anyone guessed."

He claims that without government subsidies for the oil and gas industry, consumers would pay $15/gallon for gasoline, so he sees his government subsidies as just leveling the playing field.

However, he is planning to decamp for Europe. Europe is much more generous with the subsidies. Plus, they are paranoid about mad cow disease, and thermal conversion is the only practical way of dealing with prion-infected carcasses.
Last edited by Ferretlover on Sat 21 Mar 2009, 08:58:34, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged with THE Turkey Oil Plant Thread.
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Re: The turkey parts plant

Unread postby gego » Tue 07 Mar 2006, 22:36:34

This is a good example of how government subsidies make people do things that they would not and should not rationally do.

The simple fact is that when you lose money, you are losing resources, i.e., you are using more resources than your are creating as measured by money.

But then government is the prime vehicle through which thing are done that no sane person would consider.
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Re: The turkey parts plant

Unread postby Russian_Cowboy » Wed 08 Mar 2006, 03:24:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy has it been so difficult? "Basically, everything has been more complex and expensive than anyone guessed."


I figured that all the predicted costs of producing oil alternatives should be multiplied by at least a factor of three to get the true costs. For example, the synthetic oil from the tar sands was supposed to cost $12/barrel, but its long term cost will be definitely above $36/barrel.
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Re: The turkey parts plant

Unread postby JohnOfParis » Sat 11 Mar 2006, 12:33:28

I find this business about odours strange. The turkey plant itself cannot be exactly odourless (I recently saw a comment that the Butterball plant "smells like Thanksgiving all the year round"), so how does the TCP plant make this worse? Whatever the odour of the plant (and how do you describe a smell - heard it's something like singed hair), the stink of politically motivated put-down is what pervades my delicate nostrils where I'm standing.
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Re: The turkey parts plant

Unread postby Eli » Sat 11 Mar 2006, 12:51:57

The reports I have read said that it smells like death, or that it smells like roadkill except more intense and it does not go away.

But more recently they might be getting a handle on the odor problem.
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