[Falconoffury]

Is the act of a civilization choosing how to depopulate its people a more humane method of dealing with overpopulation than to let nature simply run its course? Can overall suffering of a population be lessened through population control?

http://peakoil.com/fortopic3609-0.html

Albert Bartlett, in the video in the above link, suggests that we can choose how we want population to stop growing.

In my opinion, a reduction of birth rates would make life a lot more tolerable around the world considering the coming depletion of fossil fuels. Only a few countries have near 0 population growth. If we can lower birth rates today, that's fewer people who will be starving and suffering tomorrow.

Some would say that it's impossible for a society to accept population control. Well, some countries have been able to do a good job at adopting unique ideas. Islamic countries have done well to prevent women from walking around with their hair showing. The Nazi party before world war II became widely accepted in Germany in a rather short period of time. Maybe we need a new condom worshipping religion. It may sound funny, but an effective social anchor towards population control is possible. I like to use the phrase, paradigm shift.

A paradigm shift in the economy would be required in order to accomodate a 0 growth population. The whole "infinite growth" idea will have to be thrown out the window. Consumerism has to also be thrown out. I think we can still have a civilization where people's lives are enriched through art, science, engineering, medicine, etc without consumerism.

I'm just thinking of what would make a good world in which to live after the devestating transition out of an oil economy that is coming. Maybe if we stop destroying our planet and killing each other, some of those UFOs flying around will actually land and something will come out and say "hello". If I was an alien from an advanced race, I would regard humans as less than animals. At least animals don't go to wars where members of the same species kill each other on a massive scale.

Just to be clear, I am a doomer. I think we will have a dieoff period that will have suffering and death worse than anytime in known human history. I just have high hopes for the time after the die-off.

[Gil-Galad]

About 40% of Americans are obese, if they had to survive without their statins and other drugs they would die off pretty quickly

[Kingcoal]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gil-Galad', 'A')bout 40% of Americans are obese, if they had to survive without their statins and other drugs they would die off pretty quickly

[Jenab6]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kingcoal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gil-Galad', 'A')bout 40% of Americans are obese, if they had to survive without their statins and other drugs they would die off pretty quickly

[eastbay]

It's nice to imagine that humanity could somehow organize the coming population reduction in some 'humane' manner.

But I can't imagine it happening by legislated birth-control or other creative socially-engineered family planning systems. People won't agree to such a system anyhow. If you look at China's mostly-failed (oh sure, their population would have grown even more without it but a die-off certainly won't permit ANY growing) one-child policy one can plainly see it's a pointless waste of time to even try. The coming population reduction will instead most likely happen over the course of billions of bullet and knife wounds administered face-to-face by the starving and the desperate upon each other.

Happy New Year

[Falconoffury]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he coming population reduction will instead most likely happen over the course of billions of bullet and knife wounds administered face-to-face by the starving and the desperate upon each other.

[0mar]

Having one child per family would still have populations balloon to about 8 billion in 2050 before they started to decline. The only real way to curb overpopulation is by instituting a draconian no children until 2050 kind of policy. Or systemized population reduction. Even Hitler could only kill 12 million in 4 years. We would need to increase that number by a factor of 10 if we wanted to really to make some headway.

For example, if we wanted to reduce overpopulation by 50% (ie go from 6.5 billion to 3 billion) in say, 20 years, we would need to kill approximately 150 million people a year for 20 years straight or about 450,000 people a day. That's a US civil war casualty count every day or 3 World War 2s every year. There's not a person on Earth, not even Dick Cheney, that would resort to such a plan. It's absolutely heinous, even if you think that humans are parasites and scum.

Overpopulation is the mother of all runaway trains.

[eastbay]

Yeah, Falconoffury, as long as post-peak people don't screw-up and discover a new source of ready and cheap energy (such as oil) humanity and the planet in general will be far better off post-peak.

Doomerosity level 8.5.

[Falconoffury]

I think there is little to no hope of reducing the suffering during the dieoff that is around the corner. I just have hopes that, when we get down to a stable world population, that we can learn to live in balance and harmony with the planet.

[eastbay]

Since Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin together organized the socially and politically acceptable killing of 40 million people without history looking too badly at them and since Mao was able to organise the killing of 50 million people and still be revered by his people decades after his death it just may be possible to organize a socially, politically, and history-friendly population reduction program quickly and systematically killing off 4 or 5 billion.

Hey listen, if those four scumbags could do it and still be painted as national hero's a half-century after their slaughters, why couldn't someone else try it again if the reward is to become a national hero? I suppose it all depends on how well the propaganda campaign is organized.

I bet someone will go for it. To be painted forever as a hero like those four skanks managed to do is just too darn tempting.

[PrairieMule]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gil-Galad', 'A')bout 40% of Americans are obese, if they had to survive without their statins and other drugs they would die off pretty quickly

[The_Virginian]

Things being done to reduce the number of your offspring:

Encourage free Sex.

Encourage women in the work force (actualy found in UN population control literature).

Break down all old social Norms, replace them with Homosexuality, "Battle of the Sexes", and affinity for Pets instead of children.

(increases deaths by STD's or at least semi-sterilization in falopian tubes via scar tissue etc.)

Encourage Hot Tubs, Saunas, Tight Undies for men.

Encourage eating TVP, Canola and Cotton seed oils, Esters and Gender bending chemicals...

Encourage profit in Agri-biz instead of Vitamin content of vegtibles, or safety of chemicals used on said products.

Pollute, pollute, and pollute some more...and you can then get a seat in Politics with a"green" message.

Any thing that makes MONEY while reducing the worlds population is A-OK.

[elroy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Nazi party before world war II became widely accepted in Germany in a rather short period of time.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Virginian', ' ')Break down all old social Norms, replace them with Homosexuality, "Battle of the Sexes", and affinity for Pets instead of children.

[peaker_2005]

Nuclear war. Of course, that'll screw up the whole planet in the process, but it'd work! Could cause a nuclear winter which would also exacerbate the dieoff...

Note that I don't endorse this option. War in my view is barbaric...

[The_Virginian]

TW,

This will not stand.

http://www.narth.com/docs/animalmyth.html

Here is a counter to your homosexual-higher primate theories. The very fact you have been indoctronated with such dribbel is proof, that for the most part, we have no more values, only a set of "conditions."


I would be intrested to see liturature not just on "domination" or "play" behaviour, but repeted examples where higher primated actualy ejaculate in the rectum.

After all, that is the definition of the complete Homosexual act. I highly doubt the penis of the "Higher" Primates even penitrates the Anus, that being the begining of the Biblicaly defined Homosexual act.

Please excuse my explicit language, but a definition of true Homo sexuality (vs. "homo-eroticisim" stimulated by other factors) needed clarification.

[entropyfails]

How about a method that will actually work?

Reduce the amount of food production by 0.75% to 1% each year and share the caloric reduction equally. Lotka-Volterra proves that this will reduce human population over time and it also immediately relieves the growth of environmental stress that humans place on the environment. It’s a win/win. No one need starve and the natural birth rate will decline in unison with the food decline.

As a secondary benefit, this will increase the energy use per capita which decreases the birth rate along allometric lines. Building sustainable power sources will also help lower birth rates.

Oh, and you are an asshole who has no idea of what you are talking about, duh_Virginian. I’ve seen 2 male bonobos suck each other’s dicks. If you don’t think that’s gay, then there is no point in having a discussion with you. Actually, that’s true regardless. For the rest of you who haven’t had your mind made up by your preacher, here is a link from National Geographic about gay sex in animals. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... mal_2.html

[Jake_old]

Just to chip in, that article is well worth a read. Gay activities among animals is very interesting. Not only with dolphins and bonobos and Japanese macaques, but also penguines can form life long homosexual bonds.

In dogs we call it domination mounting. (rolling eyes if they were working)

Men in ancient sparta were expected to marry women, but it was accepted that many men engaged in sex acts together, it just wasn't called anything. This still happens in many parts of the world.

Try watching Ricky Gervais's Animals for a humourous perspective on the subject.

[elroy]

Homosexuality isn't a choice, if it was then it wouldn't exist in places where it leads to a severe disadvantage, such as the USA, or where it can lead to death, like Saudi Arabia.

[TommyJefferson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'S')ince Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin together organized the socially and politically acceptable killing of 40 million people without history looking too badly at them and since Mao was able to organise the killing of 50 million people and still be revered by his people decades after his death it just may be possible to organize a socially, politically, and history-friendly population reduction program quickly and systematically killing off 4 or 5 billion.