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A Big Dose of Energy Reality

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

A Big Dose of Energy Reality

Unread postby Gazzatrone » Tue 27 Dec 2005, 14:06:32

I saw this posted over in the Stories Archive as the title "A Big Dose of Energy Reality" caught my eye, but have to confess that it makes no sense whatsoever. Either the writer is completely inept at essay structure or I am failing to miss the point entirely.

From what ever source I have been reading from lately, and I must confess I am still pretty new to the Peak Oil debate. Most Peaker's would have us at 30 years remaining oil.

Yet several of the sources quoted in the article sound as though we have only just discovered oil!

I am basing my reaction purely on the percentages of growth that he cites, and having seen Prof. Albert Bartlett's lecture on exponential growth, these percentages of 50% and 20% over short time spans are just plain dillusional.

Please feel free to put me straight on this.
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Re: Am I missing something here?

Unread postby JoeW » Tue 27 Dec 2005, 15:15:57

The guy is a hack, spewing out Republican talking points. The whole article is propaganda, designed to give you just the facts that you need to agree with his conclusions.

For instance, he mentions 2 trillion barrels of oil from domestic shale-oil, but never mentions how it can be extracted.

It may be true that ANWR oil could replace Saudi imports for 30 years, but what about the oil that is imported from so many other sources? I think Saudi imports comprise about 10% of US supply.

The other thing to consider is that all of these US locations where drilling is banned create a somewhat strategic reserve in the ground. The alternative (the drill everywhere immediately approach) is a Deplete-America-First policy. The current policy of Deplete-OPEC-First is probably the better strategy to prepare for the oil endgame.

He also states that somehow Congress is acting against the interests of Big Oil by disallowing arctic drilling, which is ridiculous. Last time I took an economics class, supply increases meant price decreases, and most companies do not care to see their product's price decline.

This guy has a severe lack in the area of critical thinking.
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Re: Am I missing something here?

Unread postby BO » Tue 27 Dec 2005, 15:26:50

The publication in question: "Chronwatch" exists only to debunk the San Francisco Chronicle, which the editors see as "liberal propaganda". They spend most of there time glorifying FoxNews and Rush Limbaugh, and demonizing Air America. Anything that comes out of this publication is pure bunk.
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Re: Am I missing something here?

Unread postby bantri » Tue 27 Dec 2005, 15:39:26

welcome aboard,
i love Bartlett lectures,
http://peakoil.com/fortopic5635.html
and i suggest doing some more reading on:
Jevon´s, Savinar, Hubbert, Detwyler, Deffeyes, Stewart, Machiavelli, Hawking, Orwell, Huxley, Meadows and definitely THIS site.
Some very interesting facts ahead :)
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Re: Am I missing something here?

Unread postby killJOY » Tue 27 Dec 2005, 15:46:31

The article is a classic example of how figures used in isolation from any context can make fabulous LIES.

Let's look at this one:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')The oil from a tiny portion of ANWR “could generate as many as 16 billion barrels of oil, enough to replace about 30 years worth of oil imports from Saudi Arabia.”


As a writer above notes, this is a pittance. The numbers look impressive, but ANWR's oil will not even offset decline from existing fields. And as the US's massive energy appetite increases, ANWR oil looks more and more like an hors d'oeuvre. But ANWR will be drilled, I guarantee. Get ready for a diet of hors d'oeuvres.

Now let's look at this one:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')The United States has enough non-park federal resources to supply natural gas to 100 million homes for 157 years.


At first I thought, a goddamned lie, until I looked closer. Questions ensued:

How much nat gas goes to supplying "homes", vs. industrial uses and generating electricity? There answer is illustrated in the chart below, which shows that most nat gas goes to generating electricity and supplying industry.

Chart

Also: How much of that "non-park federal resource" is actually commerically extractable? And once again--will it offset declines from existing fields? I'll be my jockstrap collection the answer is NO.

One good thing about peak oil and gas: I will enjoy watching people Alan Caruba enduring "demand destruction."
Peak oil = comet Kohoutek.
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Re: Am I missing something here?

Unread postby Peak_Modernity » Tue 27 Dec 2005, 15:54:49

I'll take a stab at some of his points.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he World Energy Outlook 2005, published by the International Energy Agency “expects global energy markets to remain robust through 2030. If policies remain unchanged, world energy demand is projected to increase by over 50% between now and 2030. World energy resources are adequate to meet this demand, but investment of $17 trillion will be needed to bring these resources to consumers.”


Assuming supply can be increased to meet demand, no one is going to invest $17 trillion and expect to sell oil cheaply. As I'm sure you have read, Peak Oil is all about reaching the limits of cheap and easy to extract oil. It is possible that we will use shale oil, coal-to-oil and other uncoventional sources to raise production of usable oil, but expect to pay dearly for this privilege.

He also uses phrases like "running out" or "157 year supply". These are highly misleading. For any resource it is the neccesity and rate of extraction/production that are important. Peak Oil means that at some point there will not be enough oil for everyone who wants it. This will be seen in the form of rising prices. At this point in time and for the next 5-10 years we will remain very sensitive to high oil and gas prices due to our reliance on oil for a good bit of our economy.

Think of it like this, you're driving a car with a 200 mile range on a tank of gas. You need to go 200 miles to get through the desert, but the tank is only have full. You can step on the pedal harder, but you won't make up any of the needed distance. You may find someone on the side of the road to sell you a few gallons, but they are going to get a premium for it. This is a rough example of our economy. We need to go 200 miles to avoid serious a recession or depression, but will have less than a full tank to work with. This is a strange concept to understand, because people tend to think on the extremes of running out or swimming in oil, but really comparing oil depletion to dehydration is also very fitting. If you can't have all that you need, some of the effects are almost as bad as have none.
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Re: Am I missing something here?

Unread postby Gazzatrone » Wed 28 Dec 2005, 06:36:57

Thanks guys, being from the UK, its sometimes difficult to differentiate the politics of writers, thankfully you comments have answered my questions.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he guy is a hack, spewing out Republican talking points. The whole article is propaganda, designed to give you just the facts that you need to agree with his conclusions. - JoeW


Thats what my initial thoughts were, as his figures thus,

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he oil from a tiny portion of ANWR “could generate as many as 16 billion barrels of oil, enough to replace about 30 years worth of oil imports from Saudi Arabia.”


16 billion does sound a lot but having read as much as Ii have which isn't a lot, I don't need a Cambridge education to figure out that in global usage of 30b BPY, 16 billion barrels would only serve the world for 6 months.

And his reference to 50% growth from now until 2030 (I know he involves all energies but one could take it that that figure is the same for each fuel commodity), if in 12.5 years we are half way to that then we would be burning 45b BPY. How much would we need to be producing to satisfy demand then?

I'm not a mathematician, but from what we supply to what we demand, we would be in a catastrophic state within 12.5 years.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Am I missing something here?

Unread postby pip » Wed 28 Dec 2005, 12:21:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he oil from a tiny portion of ANWR “could generate as many as 16 billion barrels of oil, enough to replace about 30 years worth of oil imports from Saudi Arabia.”


This also misleading because the writer knows most people will assume we get a lot of oil from Saudi, when Mexico and Canada are each responsible more imported oil than Saudi Arabia.
The road goes on forever and the party never ends - REK
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Re: Am I missing something here?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 28 Dec 2005, 23:25:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('killJOY', 'T')he article is a classic example of how figures used in isolation from any context can make fabulous LIES.

Let's look at this one:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')The oil from a tiny portion of ANWR “could generate as many as 16 billion barrels of oil, enough to replace about 30 years worth of oil imports from Saudi Arabia.”


As a writer above notes, this is a pittance. The numbers look impressive, but ANWR's oil will not even offset decline from existing fields.


I agree. I ran the numbers here:

Drilling for Oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
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