[emersonbiggins]

I don't believe it.

[web]http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/20/intelligent.design/index.html[/web]

[PenultimateManStanding]

Interesting that Judge Jones was appointed by President Bush and himself backs Intelligent Design, but nonetheless struck down the school board decision with rather disparaging remarks. Complex issue. What thoughtful person can doubt the organic history of the planet? Science has chased God all the way back to the Big Bang. Maybe God gets the last laugh.

[Daryl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'I')nteresting that Judge Jones was appointed by President Bush and himself backs Intelligent Design

[PenultimateManStanding]

The debate rages on:

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB ... coMainPage

For me, the question is if intelligence can possibly result from random processes. The history of life would seem to suggest that it can and has. So what is the impetus? gradients. Complexity and intelligence arises from and in answer to the existence of natural gradients. It's the principal of the shortest path at work. Life evolved to dissipate gradients. I have more to say about this, but it depends on whether anyone wants to discuss it.

[The_Toecutter]

If it cannot be analyzed using the scientific method, it has no relevance in a science classroom...

[PenultimateManStanding]

Quote from the discovery site on intelligent design:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Over the last 25 years, scientists have discovered an exquisite world of nanotechnology within living cells. Inside these tiny labyrinthine enclosures, scientists have found functioning turbines, miniature pumps, sliding clamps, complex circuits, rotary engines, and machines for copying, reading and editing digital information-hardly the simple "globules of plasm" envisioned by Darwin's contemporaries.

Moreover, most of these circuits and machines depend on the coordinated function of many separate parts. For example, scientists have discovered that bacterial cells are propelled by miniature rotary engines called flagellar motors that rotate at speeds up to 100,000 rpm. These engines look for all-the world as if they were designed by the Mazda corporation, with many distinct mechanical parts (made of proteins) including rotors, stators, O-rings, bushings, U-joints, and drive shafts.

Is this appearance of design merely illusory? Could natural selection have produced this appearance in a neo-Darwinian fashion one tiny incremental mutation at a time? Biochemist Michael Behe argues 'no.' He points out that the flagellar motor depends upon the coordinated function of 30 protein parts. Yet the absence of any one of these parts results in the complete loss of motor function. Remove one of the necessary proteins (as scientists can do experimentally) and the rotary motor simply doesn't work. The motor is, in Behe's terminology, "irreducibly complex."

This creates a problem for the Darwinian mechanism. Natural selection preserves or "selects" functional advantages. If a random mutation helps an organism survive, it can be preserved and passed on to the next generation. Yet, the flagellar motor has no function until after all of its 30 parts have been assembled. The 29 and 28-part versions of this motor do not work. Thus, natural selection can "select" or preserve the motor once it has arisen as a functioning whole, but it can do nothing to help build the motor in the first place.

This leaves the origin of molecular machines like the flagellar motor unexplained by the mechanism-natural selection-that Darwin specifically proposed to replace the design hypothesis.

Is there a better alternative? Based upon our uniform and repeated experience, we know of only one type of cause that produces irreducibly complex systems, namely, intelligence. Indeed, whenever we encounter irreducibly complex systems--such as an integrated circuit or an internal combustion engine--and we know how they arose, invariably a designing engineer played a role

[Daryl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'T')he debate rages on:

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB ... coMainPage

For me, the question is if intelligence can possibly result from random processes. The history of life would seem to suggest that it can and has. So what is the impetus? gradients. Complexity and intelligence arises from and in answer to the existence of natural gradients. It's the principal of the shortest path at work. Life evolved to dissipate gradients. I have more to say about this, but it depends on whether anyone wants to discuss it.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', 'N')o matter how intelligent design gets explained to me, it still sounds like "God did it". Perhaps an interesting philosophical argument that I have sympathy for, but it's not science.

[PenultimateManStanding]

BTW, I know from my reading of Richard Dawkins that the idea of 'intelligent genes' is regarded as 'crazy'. So be it. The Wright Brothers were thought 'crazy' too, weren't they? Where in nature does the intelligence lie? Clearly it is somewhere or we wouldn't have it.

[bobcousins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'B')TW, I know from my reading of Richard Dawkins that the idea of 'intelligent genes' is regarded as 'crazy'. So be it. The Wright Brothers were thought 'crazy' too, weren't they? Where in nature does the intelligence lie? Clearly it is somewhere or we wouldn't have it.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', '
')Intelligence is an emergent property.

[holmes]

Its all fine with me as long as u go all the way back to the molecular level and want to believe god created that. Not the weirdo scenario that we were created in a day and earth started 6 thousand years ago or something. Teach science and if u want, teach that god created biology, ecology, etc.. erasing the science is dumbing down. maybe some are just too stupid so they want to make it easy with no effort. Judging by the education today thats what folks want. No hw. no marathon studying. very sad how stupid we are becoming. I say teach hardcore stuff like ecology and drop the BS cources like humanities and liberal arts.
well believing is surely more easy than knowing. u can sit on the couch and drink sugar and believe. knowing takes serious effort.

[bobcousins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', '
')Intelligence is an emergent property.

[Daryl]

There are some questions science will never answer. They are beyond its ability. What is consciousness? How is human consciousness different from animal consciousness? What's beyond the furthest object we can see in space? Ironic that after all the observation and all the advanced mathematics, the best theory they have for the beginning of the universe is a big bang. They could have saved themselves the trouble and just read Genesis.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Still, it's pretty amazing how they can work out the physics back to micro-seconds after the big bang and have it all be confirmed by deep-space infra-red images. I'm impressed.

[Daryl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'S')till, it's pretty amazing how they can work out the physics back to micro-seconds after the big bang and have it all be confirmed by deep-space images. I'm impressed.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'S')till, it's pretty amazing how they can work out the physics back to micro-seconds after the big bang and have it all be confirmed by deep-space images. I'm impressed.

[ECM]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'Q')uote from the discovery site on intelligent design:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')This creates a problem for the Darwinian mechanism. Natural selection preserves or "selects" functional advantages. If a random mutation helps an organism survive, it can be preserved and passed on to the next generation. Yet, the flagellar motor has no function until after all of its 30 parts have been assembled. The 29 and 28-part versions of this motor do not work. Thus, natural selection can "select" or preserve the motor once it has arisen as a functioning whole, but it can do nothing to help build the motor in the first place.

[Z]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', 'W')ho cares at the end of the day about "what". I want to know "why"?

[0mar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ECM', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'Q')uote from the discovery site on intelligent design:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')This creates a problem for the Darwinian mechanism. Natural selection preserves or "selects" functional advantages. If a random mutation helps an organism survive, it can be preserved and passed on to the next generation. Yet, the flagellar motor has no function until after all of its 30 parts have been assembled. The 29 and 28-part versions of this motor do not work. Thus, natural selection can "select" or preserve the motor once it has arisen as a functioning whole, but it can do nothing to help build the motor in the first place.