[nero]

After all the news of renditions, secret jails and torture do you find your patriotism has slipped a little. Has it made you embarrassed to be American?

I know as a Canadian it is a bit presumptious for me to ask such a personal question but you see Canadian patriotism is a very different animal so I am curious how these developments affect Americans.

The other night I watched a segment on 60 minutes about how a German citizen was taken by the CIA off a bus in Macedonia and secretly transported to a jail in Afghanistan where he was roughly interogated only to be then dumped on a rural road in Albania 5 months later when they found out they had got the wrong guy. (link) At the very end of the piece the interviewer asked who he says did this to him and his answer was "The United States".
It occurred to me that if I was an American this would be terribly gut wrenching because in some small way I would share responsibility for this act of my government. Is that the way Americans react?

[Colorado-Valley]

You have to remember there are two Americas.

The one that likes to torture people and blow up little kids is currently in power, and I think, represents a menace to the world.

So why isn't Canada and other civilized nations treating the U.S. as a rogue nation? Why are you doing business with such a country?

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Colorado-Valley', '
')So why isn't Canada and other civilized nations treating the U.S. as a rogue nation? Why are you doing business with such a country?

[seldom_seen]

If the exploits of the world's intelligence agencies (including Canada) were cataloged every night by the evening news we would all probably have a different view of reality. There's a reason they are so secretive.

Does that make this instance acceptable? no. Does it make it surprising? no.

We all want to have our new car and our i-pod and our frappuccino. We want lots of gas in our car and we don't want to get blown up when go to starbucks, but we'd really not like to know what people do in the shadows. It's like that movie with jack nicholson "you can't handle the truth!"

Then when we find out that there are mean people who are doing bad things in the shadows we act like we are shocked and indignant or "embarassed." Kunstler likes to drive home the point that Americans are always looking to get something for nothing. We want our oil and our security, but we want it for free.

When we realize that that there are people out there paying the price for our "way of life" we are quick to shed ourselves of any blame and cast condemnation on the "neocons" or "bush." When they are just doing what our government (and the Canadian government) has been doing adminstration after adminstration, year after year.

[julianj]

This is going a little OT, but to answer Colorado Valley, I now boycott, as far as I can, US goods and services, for example I would never shop at ASDA (taken over by Walmart). I try not to support the UK war machine either!
It's hard to tell exactly who owns who: I was shocked to find that Qualcomm, makers of the Eudora mail app which I used to use is a big player in the Military Industrial complex so I stopped using that.

I did not previously even consider this. It is clear from the noises that US business are making that other people are doing the same. It's a pinprick, of course but that is something I can do. I continue to buy US goods that I reckon are ethical*, and contribute donations to sites like Antiwar.com.

*Barring the odd lapse; I shouldn't buy Californian wine, because of the air miles, but I do.

[Madpaddy]

julianj wrote,
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '*')Barring the odd lapse; I shouldn't buy Californian wine, because of the air miles, but I do.

[waegari]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('julianj', ' ')
It's hard to tell exactly who owns who: I was shocked to find that Qualcomm, makers of the Eudora mail app which I used to use is a big player in the Military Industrial complex so I stopped using that.

[untothislast]

I'm proud to be British, even though our present government is an offensive waste of space. I'm sure exactly the same feeling applies to a lot of Americans with theirs.

[Jack]

The world is a dangerous, brutal place. More brutal than I think most realize. The various CIA hijinks are little more than fraternity pranks; but there are real players, some who have worked for our government, who go far beyond that. For example, the fellow who did spectacular work with a long hat-pin... but I digress.

I have no problem with any of the items that have been released, other than that I think the agencies are far too reluctant to get serious and get their hands dirty.

Please realize that all the little niceties we're used to around the world are a function of abundance. As that ends, you will get to witness humanity as it truly is beneath the microscopically thin veneer it currently wears. Let no one think they are above such things; given sufficient motivation and a little opportunity, we would all return to our violent roots.

Now, where did I put those dental tools?

[Fishman]

The other night I watched a segment on 60 minutes about how a German citizen was taken by the CIA off a bus in Macedonia and secretly transported to a jail in Afghanistan where he was ROUGHLY INTEREGATED only to be then DUMPED ON A RURAL ROAD in Albania 5 months later when they found out they had got the wrong guy. (link) At the very end of the piece the interviewer asked who he says did this to him and his answer was "The United States".
It occurred to me that if I was an American this would be terribly gut wrenching

In response to your question I emphasied a bit of your note. In response to an enemy that has publicly expressed a desire to destroy your entire country, sought nuclear weapons, publicly blows the head off people or decapitates them and kills its own people with the justification that they will end up in heaven anyway, I think ROUGHLY INTEREGATING THEM is acceptable. Taste a little of watching your countrymen jump from a building hit by a plane or having a family member calling you saying their goodbyes and you might reconsider your statement.

[Daryl]

This what I have to say to ungrateful Europeans, Canadians and Australians. We have been paying for your security since WW1 with our money and lives. If it wasn't for the US, you would all be living under a Hitler, Stalin, Tojo, Mao Saddam or God know what other evil force might have emerged. The world is a dangerous place. We have created a stable environment that allows you to whine about our imperfections. Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

[LadyRuby]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nero', 'A')fter all the news of renditions, secret jails and torture do you find your patriotism has slipped a little. Has it made you embarrassed to be American?

I know as a Canadian it is a bit presumptious for me to ask such a personal question but you see Canadian patriotism is a very different animal so I am curious how these developments affect Americans.

The other night I watched a segment on 60 minutes about how a German citizen was taken by the CIA off a bus in Macedonia and secretly transported to a jail in Afghanistan where he was roughly interogated only to be then dumped on a rural road in Albania 5 months later when they found out they had got the wrong guy. (link) At the very end of the piece the interviewer asked who he says did this to him and his answer was "The United States".
It occurred to me that if I was an American this would be terribly gut wrenching because in some small way I would share responsibility for this act of my government. Is that the way Americans react?

[nero]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n response to your question I emphasied a bit of your note. In response to an enemy that has publicly expressed a desire to destroy your entire country, sought nuclear weapons, publicly blows the head off people or decapitates them and kills its own people with the justification that they will end up in heaven anyway, I think ROUGHLY INTEREGATING THEM is acceptable. Taste a little of watching your countrymen jump from a building hit by a plane or having a family member calling you saying their goodbyes and you might reconsider your statement.

[Fishman]

Nero,
No. And if we have to take off our hat and put on a kevlar helmet to make sure we still have a head, I'm ok with that too.

[nero]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ladyruby', 'S')poken like a true Canadian. Do you have any clue? Isn't it obvious to the world how divided the U.S. now, more than ever? Isn't it obvious how much many of us despise the current regime (in the whitehouse, senate, and congress)?

[untothislast]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', 'T')his what I have to say to ungrateful Europeans, Canadians and Australians. We have been paying for your security since WW1 with our money and lives. If it wasn't for the US, you would all be living under a Hitler, Stalin, Tojo, Mao Saddam or God know what other evil force might have emerged. The world is a dangerous place. We have created a stable environment that allows you to whine about our imperfections. Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

[Daryl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('untothislast', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', 'T')his what I have to say to ungrateful Europeans, Canadians and Australians. We have been paying for your security since WW1 with our money and lives. If it wasn't for the US, you would all be living under a Hitler, Stalin, Tojo, Mao Saddam or God know what other evil force might have emerged. The world is a dangerous place. We have created a stable environment that allows you to whine about our imperfections. Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

[nocar]

Thank you, Untothislast.

While most nation's history books seem to make their own nation more heroic than others, this American myth about USA rescueing Europe all the time irritates me. And I always was ashamed of Sweden's passive role in WWII (we did the sensible thing and stayed out of WWI, along with the other Scandinavian countries, and also stayed of WWII) until I eventually found out that the USA had exactly the same strategy as Sweden: Stay out until you are attacked. And so did also Denmark and Norway, for example. Sweden just never got invaded or attacked.
The real heroes were the English, keeping their promises to Poland when it was invaded by Hitler.

What if USA had not entered WWI? Perhaps that peace treaty had been less painful for the Germans? One of the reasons Hitler was so successful is because he could exploit the Germans' sense of humiliation and unfair treatment.

Of course, one reason why WWI became a World War was the fact that countries kept promises to each other to come to their aid in case of war.

nocar

[Daryl]

[quote="nocar"] this American myth about USA rescueing Europe all the time irritates me. /quote]

If only the voices of the 20 million Stalin murdered could be heard.

[Princess]

This may sound odd to non-Americans, but....

I love my country, violently and passionately, and I'm proud to be an American, BUT I'm ashamed and embarrassed by my government and its so-called leaders. I make a clear distinction between the country and my government. They are NOT the same.