[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')hough many people here admit peak oil is a real problem and needs a solution, ...

[Jake_old]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')hough many people here admit peak oil is a real problem and needs a solution, ...

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')hough many people here admit peak oil is a real problem and needs a solution, ...

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '.').. Whoa whoa whoa! Maybe if you understood my position you might agree with me. ....

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', ' ')But if you believe that you can be happy living in a small house near your work (close enough that you can ride a bike)....then PO really isn't a problem. Is that your position Ludi?

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', ' ')...Is that your position Ludi?

[0mar]

Basically my stance on Peak Oil is this.
We are going to hit the biggest problem humanity has ever faced on a scale unimaginable before. We are talking Independance Day catatrosphe here.
Long term, assuming we don't nuke each other to obvilion, I have zero doubts that a sustainable lifestyle will emerge from the ruins of this civilization that will have better standards of living and also live a high-energy lifestyle better than us. We have the knowledge and technology to bring copious amounts of energy to a sizeable population. Unfortunately that population size is much lower than what we currently have (1.5 - 2 billion vs 6.5 billion).

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('0mar', 'U')nfortunately that population size is much lower than what we currently have (1.5 - 2 billion vs 6.5 billion).

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', ' ')I'm curious exactly what is your position/solution Ludi?

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '.')..The single most important step towards any meaningful solution is for our culture to develop a mindset which acknowledges the fact that we live in a finite system and that we are subject to the laws of that system....

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '.')..The single most important step towards any meaningful solution is for our culture to develop a mindset which acknowledges the fact that we live in a finite system and that we are subject to the laws of that system....

[Omnitir]

Powerup/powerdown: I think it’s not so black and white and that you can’t have one without the other. For example, you can’t powerdown modern agriculture without powering up private agriculture, can you?
I think everyone on PO.com agrees that we are heading for trouble, and most accept that we need some level of powerdown. The difference of opinions seems to be about what will work and what should be attempted.

I think we need to powerdown non-essentials and with the help of technology make a transition to a new way of life. It’s generally a very similar position to the powerdown ideal, but the difference is I think we should strive to reduce die-off, and also, eventually the transition will be complete and civilisation can continue to develop, though develop in a different way to the past.
In other words, I think powerdown is needed as a temporary solution, to enable us to powerup more important necessities.

[Wildwell]

Much of the peak oil discussion seems to be about two schools of thought:
1. The environmental, ‘capitalism is like strip mining’, power down brigade.
2. The technological love bunnies, fusion, space mirrors and clever boxes of tricks will save the day.
The first option initially sounds attractive, but there is no easy way to convince the population to abandon industrial society. After all, people’s education, work, play and much of their life moulds them into consumers, learner, producers and educators. Life is more comfortable, for most, in the industrial/information society.

The second option is a token of faith of course, and is probably equally flawed. There is with certainty finite limits to the earth, technology is imperfect, but more importantly so are humans. Unlimited energy would destroy the earth without question, it would be the equivalent of the arms races between 1950 and the late 1990s, and repaint the strategic military and economic landscape in such a way it would scorch the earth and tear the political fabric. The division between skill sets of people would become more pronounced, and at some stage a luddite movement would reappear as sectors of the population try to control the rest of the population through technological means – this is happening now (read privacy, terrorism, GM food, gene therepy etc)
Suffice to say, the middle way will probably be the result, at some stage. Let’s face it humans are hopelessly flawed.

[Ludi]

I recently took one of those "ecological footprint" quizzes and came out with a footprint 28.77% of the average North American footprint, which still requires 1.99 Earths if everyone on Earth would be at my standard of living. And this was with a larger percentage of Earth's landmass devoted to human uses than I found acceptable.

How do we determine how far to powerdown? What is the standard of living we can achieve and support our current population?

[Wildwell]

If it helps, I did the same quiz and I got ‘If everyone lived like you, we would need one planet’. So, how do I live?
- No car (atm)
- Strictly no flying
- Bit of bus travel
- Train travel
- Mostly vegetarian
- Small house
- Careful with waste, heat and light
- Computers and mod-cons
How much is the planet reasonably capable of and is desirable, depends on your point of view? Either as above or:
- 2 billion population
- Limited driving, more PT
- More localised diet, not too much meat/fish
- Reasonable house
- A few flights per lifetime
That doesn't mean EVERYONE has to live like that, but that would be a sustainable average IMHO. There's no way this planet could support 2 billion people with a US style life, certainly not 6 billion.

[Ludi]

I use a car a little, that's what's killing me I guess....also do not have the house on renewable energy.

[seldom_seen]

I think the economy will give us a push in the right direction.
"oh, gee can't afford to buy that snowmobile anymore" +4 powerdown points
"dang, with airplane prices so high, guess I won't be going to maui" +3 powerdown points
"hmm, a steak would be nice, but it's looking like corn meal again" +1 powerdown points
"oh boy, the station is out of gas again, guess I'm walking" +3 powerdown points
As you can see you can rack up many powerdown points without even trying. If oil depletion plays out as predicted by many, we will just be letting nature take its course and our energy use will contract with supply. A powerdown imposed on us, rather than one that we choose.
Somone once wrote regarding the destruction of nature "we will never save ourselves in spite of ourselves." I think that says it all.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', ' ')What is the standard of living we can achieve and support our current population?

[Ludi]

I'm not sure what you mean by "like peasants" Monte. Permaculture proponents seem to think we can achieve a comfortable standard of living for all people and restore a great deal of habitat if we adopt permaculture practices instead of current agricultural and community design practices. The hardship imposed on peasants is in part because they are forced to support others living at a much higher standard. If everyone were "living like a peasant" than no one would be "living like a peasant" because everyone would be supporting themselves (and each other) at an equal standard of living. Is this an ideal? Absolutely! Is it achievable? Possibly. It certainly seems more achieveable than some other ideals such as space colonization. And it has been thoroughly researched and is currently being implemented here and there, unlike space colonization which is being implemented no where.

So, I'm trying to use the permaculture model to arrive at my standard of living. It means "doing without" some of the trappings of modern life, and it requires a bit more physical labor instead of using as many energy slaves.
I'm not saying the permaculture model is the only model, or that everyone must adopt it, just that it is an existing model for those who are interested in this.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')'m not sure what you mean by "like peasants" Monte.