[FairMaiden]

This thread is based on the assumption that all PO'ers are unhappy (false in my experience) and that we believe the post PO world will somehow be better (false in my opinion again).

I honestly believe most ppl are dissatisfied with their lives bc they are buying (pun intended) into a consumerism lifestyle full of empty promises. If you buy this, your life will be easier - but its not you are working longer and harder for less money. If you get that nifty gadget you will save time but you pay 4x more for it and have to work more to earn the money to buy it. Remember how computers were suppose to make our lives simpler and our offices paperless? Our society is full of lies. I don't see how PO is going to change our basic makeup. Caesar was using propaganda in his time - so the "old way" isn't all that much better.

[aswerfawf]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('keehah', 'T')he real question is what makes one think this is a dominant personality of those who accept Peak Oil? Self-perception theory?

Wikipedia Cognitive dissonance

[aswerfawf]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FairMaiden', 'T')his thread is based on the assumption that all PO'ers are unhappy (false in my experience) and that we believe the post PO world will somehow be better (false in my opinion again).

[aswerfawf]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I') like it!

Crutch isn’t quite the right description however; key to an imagined, but elusive door would be better. After all, a crutch can only take you so far and if you become too dependent, it just becomes more baggage, whereas once you turn a key and unlock that door your new direction is up to you.

[aswerfawf]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Anonymous', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aswerfawf', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('turmoil', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eotyrant', 'I')ndeed, being as I am only 19, a happy, non-apocalyptic future is far preferable.

[keehah]

Refreshed myself on Dumbo. I think I better understand the thread with this second read. Explained another way it could be that Peak Oil is a samskara (a trigger, Dumbo's feather) that allows one to advance further along the path of life and Self-realization to Vanaprastha (as practiced in Eastern Religions)?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Four Stages of Life

The four Ashramas are seen in ideal terms as the four stages through which a maturing human life should pass. They are Brahmacharya, Grihasthya, Vanaprastha and Sanyasa.
Brahmacharya is spent building up body and mind for the responsibilities of life.
Grihastya is the householder's stage, alternatively known as samsara, in which one marries and satisfies kama and artha within a married life and professional career.
Vanaprastha is gradual detachment from the material world, retirement from society (traditionally into the forest). Lifestyle is more simplified, and the couple may retreat to a quieter place for deeper practices.
Finally, in sanyasa, the individual goes off into seclusion, to find God through meditation being an elder teacher and peacefully shed the body for the next life.

[aswerfawf]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('keehah', 'R')efreshed myself on Dumbo. I think I better understand the thread with this second read. Explained another way it could be that Peak Oil is a samskara (a trigger, Dumbo's feather) that allows one to advance further along the path of life and Self-realization to Vanaprastha (as practiced in Eastern Religions)?

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KingM', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '
')What I want to know is why 95% of young people today are so oblivious of or uninterested in the fast-deteriorating state of their world. They face potentially life-ending crises in their lifetimes, but they have little political energy and would rather while away the hours with Britney Spears and once in a while vote for the latest GOP clone/clown.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aswerfawf', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Anonymous', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aswerfawf', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('turmoil', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eotyrant', 'I')ndeed, being as I am only 19, a happy, non-apocalyptic future is far preferable.

[Ludi]

Don't assume you can know or understand another person's motives. You can maybe understand your own motives, and maybe if you know someone else rather well you might be able to understand their motives. But to pretend or claim to understand the motives of people you don't know except from their possibly ill-composed posts on a messageboard, I think is simply misguided.

[Heineken]

Well-said once again, Ludi.

Love your signature. I've tangled with energyspin as well and found the experience . . . strange.

[Eotyrant]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'D')on't assume you can know or understand another person's motives. You can maybe understand your own motives, and maybe if you know someone else rather well you might be able to understand their motives. But to pretend or claim to understand the motives of people you don't know except from their possibly ill-composed posts on a messageboard, I think is simply misguided.

[BlisteredWhippet]

I think Peak Oil can be a crutch, sure.

I like to frame the psychological aspects of PO in traditional American, Christian terms because that is the frame I think most people in this country are living in.

Basically, PO represents Justice, in the sense of rendering unto the sinners what they deserve. PO takes the place of God in this theory.

We feel powerless; therefore we are attracted to a scenario in which the "playing field" is leveled.

We feel the need for justice in a world that is being overrun by capitalists and conspicuous consumptive, destructive evil and (believing in God), see PO as a sign from God. Even if we don't believe in God, PO is still delivers a certain impartial and fair justice.

There are two core beliefs that PO serves well:

1. Justice comes to the wicked.

2. Life should be meaningful.

Without these two things, Life is merely a Sartean tragi-comedy in which values cannot be anchored to signifigant existential entities. No matter how much money we amass, how much we consume, or how hard we toil at work, these two questions cannot be addressed if life continued on the path that it is heading.

I'm not saying that people believe in PO because it makes them feel good. I'm saying PO allows for the possibility of #1 and #2 actually being real in terms of our everyday experience, therefore it has the possibility of filling two deep, visceral psychological needs.

The interplay of psychological effects throughout PO as a social or personal phenomenon is too complicated to sum up here.

I think a great many people escape from their jobs, their dead-end lives, their decadent societies every day of the week, by plopping down in front of the TV and watching parables which temporarily fulfill psychological gaps #1 and #2, but do not understand the subtle reasons WHY, or even necessarily care.

If you spent the better part of your life examining the answer to that question for yourself, you probably understand how PO is a distinctly different animal than religion, faith, or your own self-rationalizations.

Sure, PO can be a crutch. A crutch that makes life worth living; that gives everyday decisions a moral depth; that provides insight on world events...

PO is a crutch for people that have never tasted a wild salmon that didn't have its gene pool polluted by industrial fish farming.... so that they can understand the depth of what they're missing even if they cannot taste it.

PO is a crutch for people who otherwise would have imagined the whole oil enterprise as an infinite function of nature.

PO is a crutch for people who want to fufill the promise advertised on some peoples' bumper stickers': "They'll only take my SUV when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers" WITHOUT actually killing anybody.

The opposite of PO theory, Cornucopianism, more closely resembles pathology. It is not a questioning theory, has no good "core" values, and as most POers know, resembles religion moreso than analysis. Its more like a motorized wheelchair, I guess, which the rider imagines has infinite battery capacity.

[KingM]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', '
')The opposite of PO theory, Cornucopianism, more closely resembles pathology. It is not a questioning theory, has no good "core" values, and as most POers know, resembles religion moreso than analysis. Its more like a motorized wheelchair, I guess, which the rider imagines has infinite battery capacity.

[turmoil]

I agree in part with KingM that there is plenty of good out there. But there is a difference, as many have said, between realism and blind faith.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Peakoil Newbie: What will happen when we start to run out of oil?

Peak Oiler: Well, it will turn our just-in-time, wasteful global economy on its head. Heating bills will increase, food costs will increase, tough choices will have to be made and standard of living will eventually decrease.

PN: Don't you think you are being pessimistic?

PO: It's not about optimism or pessimism. It is about taking the facts and figures and following them to their logical conclusion.

PN: But what about technology, conservation, and non-conventional sources of oil? Can't we solve this problem?

PO: Sure, every little bit helps. But we are talking about a perfect storm: rising global demand from China and India, etc, exponential decline of resources, a growing population, and everyone is in debt already. We are talking about losing half our production capacity in 23 years at just 3% annual decline. At 5% it would take just under 14 years to lose half our capacity. And thats if we can offset the decline of the Fields In Production which is estimated to be as high as 8-10% annual decline.

PN (realist): Wow, so are we all screwed? Can I kiss my ass goodbye?

PO: No, but it's going to be a nasty ride, and hopefully things won't get too ugly. I'd much rather live in a world with less consumption and hot showers rather than cold showers and malnutrition.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

*drum roll please*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
PN (modern optimism, aka cornucopian): Meh, we'll be fine, they'll think of something.

PO: Who's they?
-------------------------------------------------------

the difference is night and day...

The innovative thinking you speak of KingM, which, for one, helped form our country, is literally history (when it comes to consumption of resources). Now what we do have is personal extremes that do act as crutches. On one end you have blind faith in our current lifestyle, and on the other you have an apocalyptic vision that get's people off their respective hooks and validates their (at times) extreme ideologies. The truth is in the middle. For me, the basic understanding of the times we are entering, and discussing plans and assessments with people all over the world, is, to a great extent, what peak oil is about.

[KingM]

I think it's impossible to say whether we're at the end of the Age of Discovery or not. It may be that fifty years from now we'll look back at this time much as we look at the mid-twentieth century and wonder how people got along without flying cars, colonies on the Moon, and endless fusion energy. Or it may be that we have moved ahead, but incrementally. Perhaps we will have burned through our oil, invented nothing particularly new and will be on the long, slow slide toward an earlier, less technologically adept time.

It's far too early to say that it's all in the rear view mirror, however. We're only ten years beyond the earth-shaking advent of the internet. Life seems almost impossible without it and that sort of change makes me wonder what new changes might be just around the corner. Who can say?

[aswerfawf]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'D')on't assume you can know or understand another person's motives. You can maybe understand your own motives, and maybe if you know someone else rather well you might be able to understand their motives. But to pretend or claim to understand the motives of people you don't know except from their possibly ill-composed posts on a messageboard, I think is simply misguided.

[aswerfawf]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', 'I') think Peak Oil can be a crutch, sure.

I like to frame the psychological aspects of PO in traditional American, Christian terms because that is the frame I think most people in this country are living in.

Basically, PO represents Justice, in the sense of rendering unto the sinners what they deserve. PO takes the place of God in this theory.