The USA is on the brink of collapse
Not really.
USA is the most powerful country in the world.
It also does not have capitalism or free economy.
If it did have capitalism or free economy then it could collapse.
Free economy is for the others.For you it is massive subsidies from the goverments to the big corp through the defense sector that gets 50 % of your taxes.
Also your gov gets other countries of the world to buy your weapons for more bonus.
Oh did i mention that your ultra big corps do not pay taxes while everybody else does ?
Subsidies for famers ? Ultra low cost for gas ? Do your consumers pay anything like the money the USA army wastes to guard middle east oilfields ? Isnt this a form of subsidy ?
Any collapse on our part would mean devastation to a lot of the world.
Not really.
Other countries will simply close the borders on your goods.
Only the dow will hurt.All big corps will suffer. Oh and the ultra rich that got most of the shares. But in other countries no.
I suspect that the opposite will happen. When USSR collapsed all western economies benefited .I suspect the same will happen if USA collapses first.
Of course USA collapsing first is totally unlikely.
And our quality of life is something that Bush feels is worth fighting for
Not really.
He is really only fighting for his reelection at any cost.
Let our government collapse in itself, which would happen for many reasons.
Not really.Nothing can bring collapse to the most powerful goverment in the world
unless it is a nuclear war or something as deadly as this.
I do agree with most of your other points.
PeakOil is You
I've gotta get the hell outta here.
by skateari » Sun 03 Oct 2004, 19:59:39
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('chris-h', 'T')he USA is on the brink of collapse
Not really.
USA is the most powerful country in the world.
It also does not have capitalism or free economy.
If it did have capitalism or free economy then it could collapse.
Free economy is for the others.For you it is massive subsidies from the goverments to the big corp through the defense sector that gets 50 % of your taxes.
Also your gov gets other countries of the world to buy your weapons for more bonus.
Oh did i mention that your ultra big corps do not pay taxes while everybody else does ?
Subsidies for famers ? Ultra low cost for gas ? Do your consumers pay anything like the money the USA army wastes to guard middle east oilfields ? Isnt this a form of subsidy ?
Any collapse on our part would mean devastation to a lot of the world.
Not really.
Other countries will simply close the borders on your goods.
Only the dow will hurt.All big corps will suffer. Oh and the ultra rich that got most of the shares. But in other countries no.
I suspect that the opposite will happen. When USSR collapsed all western economies benefited .I suspect the same will happen if USA collapses first.
Of course USA collapsing first is totally unlikely.
And our quality of life is something that Bush feels is worth fighting for
Not really.
He is really only fighting for his reelection at any cost.
Let our government collapse in itself, which would happen for many reasons.
Not really.Nothing can bring collapse to the most powerful goverment in the world
unless it is a nuclear war or something as deadly as this.
I do agree with most of your other points.
Not really.
USA is the most powerful country in the world.
It also does not have capitalism or free economy.
If it did have capitalism or free economy then it could collapse.
Free economy is for the others.For you it is massive subsidies from the goverments to the big corp through the defense sector that gets 50 % of your taxes.
Also your gov gets other countries of the world to buy your weapons for more bonus.
Oh did i mention that your ultra big corps do not pay taxes while everybody else does ?
Subsidies for famers ? Ultra low cost for gas ? Do your consumers pay anything like the money the USA army wastes to guard middle east oilfields ? Isnt this a form of subsidy ?
Any collapse on our part would mean devastation to a lot of the world.
Not really.
Other countries will simply close the borders on your goods.
Only the dow will hurt.All big corps will suffer. Oh and the ultra rich that got most of the shares. But in other countries no.
I suspect that the opposite will happen. When USSR collapsed all western economies benefited .I suspect the same will happen if USA collapses first.
Of course USA collapsing first is totally unlikely.
And our quality of life is something that Bush feels is worth fighting for
Not really.
He is really only fighting for his reelection at any cost.
Let our government collapse in itself, which would happen for many reasons.
Not really.Nothing can bring collapse to the most powerful goverment in the world
unless it is a nuclear war or something as deadly as this.
I do agree with most of your other points.
Man, are you serious??
"Not really.Nothing can bring collapse to the most powerful government in the world unless it is a nuclear war or something as deadly as this. "
Not exactly. See, our government has grown so big that all the dollar is now is a number on a piece of paper, or in this day and age a number on a computer. With such a big government, it would be totally venerable to collapse, being that we have put so much of our money out to the rest of the world that we cannot control it any longer. Powerful? Do you mean in terms of warfare, well yes, I guess we are. But with Peak Oil things are really changing, and the most powerful governments are going to be the ones hit the hardest. What I said is that if our government was to ignore the rest of the world, and let them do whatever they feel without military action, our government most likely would already be in some serious dookie. If Peak Oil were to never come to play in this little game, the US could be the world's superpower for some time to come. But something you failed to mention in your arguments is that our whole economy is driven on oil; and pretty much everyone else has it but us. By simply taking that away from us would cause us to collapse, thats ignoring the whole economic crisis that would result from it too.. cancellation of all US debts, alone would devalue the dollar to an extreme extent.
" Not really.
He is really only fighting for his reelection at any cost."
HA, are you joking my friend?? He is delaying the REAL fighting til once he gets elected. The draft bill is due to pass right when the presidental election begins. Under order of the president, all 18-34 year old Males and Females will then be sent to war to, protect our standard of living, or, just our living if you want to look at it that way. I suggest doing some research on the petro-dollar vs. petro-euro war, which is really what im referring to when talking about the future collapse of the government. Check out;
http://www.rense.com/general34/realre.htm
Then you may understand that these wars are really not going to help get Bush re-elected. Its really the other way around, hes trying to keep them secrete so he CAN get re-elected, then implement his plans.
I'm not wasting my time arguing your other points cause it just doesn't mater, people actually read what you write and personally I almost laughed a few times. Keep the jokes comin' buddy
-
skateari - Coal
- Posts: 486
- Joined: Sun 26 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
by skateari » Sun 03 Oct 2004, 20:37:45
No mater what, the USA is in a situation that we have no way out.. and is very prone to collapsing first, the only thing we can do is delay the inevitable. This is why..
"The US dollar is the reserve currency for all oil transactions in the world - hence the term "petrodollar." This means that whenever oil is bought and sold - anywhere in the world, by anyone - the money exchanged circulates into the US economy. The strength of the US economy is directly tied to the strength of the petrodollar.
If a truly viable alternative to oil was to emerge, and the nations of the world began to use it, the petrodollar would collapse.
This would drive the US economy straight into a brick wall and force the US into a series of "currency wars."
Iraq is the first of a series of "currency wars". And there will be more resource and currency wars to come, the reason you don't know this is, because you seem like a typical american. You probably get all your news from CNN, and by thinking that the US is so "powerful" and thus will get out of this situation is a totaly 'dumb' idea. However it is the total opposite. Our power that we gained from 1) Using all the resources 2) Endebting countries to us 3)setup our currency for the worlds medium of exchange, will all come to be the reasons behind our collapse. Sure, they worked great on the way up the mountain, but now that we are facing the other side, they will certainly come back to bite us in butt, so to speak.
"The US dollar is the reserve currency for all oil transactions in the world - hence the term "petrodollar." This means that whenever oil is bought and sold - anywhere in the world, by anyone - the money exchanged circulates into the US economy. The strength of the US economy is directly tied to the strength of the petrodollar.
If a truly viable alternative to oil was to emerge, and the nations of the world began to use it, the petrodollar would collapse.
This would drive the US economy straight into a brick wall and force the US into a series of "currency wars."
Iraq is the first of a series of "currency wars". And there will be more resource and currency wars to come, the reason you don't know this is, because you seem like a typical american. You probably get all your news from CNN, and by thinking that the US is so "powerful" and thus will get out of this situation is a totaly 'dumb' idea. However it is the total opposite. Our power that we gained from 1) Using all the resources 2) Endebting countries to us 3)setup our currency for the worlds medium of exchange, will all come to be the reasons behind our collapse. Sure, they worked great on the way up the mountain, but now that we are facing the other side, they will certainly come back to bite us in butt, so to speak.
-
skateari - Coal
- Posts: 486
- Joined: Sun 26 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
by chris-h » Mon 04 Oct 2004, 11:08:48
skateari let me ask you a very simple question .
You think that the USA is really so vunerable ...
My question is .
If USA defaults and simply refuses to pay any and all dept how will the rest of the world make them pay ?
By using UN troops ?
I do not think so.
So when the real shock comes USA will just refuse to pay and and all dept.
The only thing that the others can do is stop trading with the USA but at that time world trading will be extremely limited anyway.
And after that the USA will start to loot right and left.
So why in gods name why do you believe that USA is vunerable ?
They will be the last to fall if they ever do.
Chris.
You think that the USA is really so vunerable ...
My question is .
If USA defaults and simply refuses to pay any and all dept how will the rest of the world make them pay ?
By using UN troops ?
I do not think so.
So when the real shock comes USA will just refuse to pay and and all dept.
The only thing that the others can do is stop trading with the USA but at that time world trading will be extremely limited anyway.
And after that the USA will start to loot right and left.
So why in gods name why do you believe that USA is vunerable ?
They will be the last to fall if they ever do.
Chris.
- chris-h
by skateari » Mon 04 Oct 2004, 15:10:53
Your thinking is completely backwards. Our debt is not tied up to other countries, our debt is tied up in this country itself. The trade deficit and budget deficits have nothing to do with us owing money to other countries, its all debt tied to the dollar. Its the other way around, the US has gone around the world and endebted a lot of countries to us, thus we can use all there resources because they 'owe them to us', so they can pay off their debt. How is the US venerable? Well lets see, we are the biggest user and thus most dependent user on oil, we have massive debts in the country, and in order to pay off debts you need economic growth. In order for economic growth you need cheap energy to drive it. And not just cheap energy at that, a constant increasing supply of it. Without that there is no constant economic growth. Without constant economic growth in a Capitalist country it will fail, the debts cant be payed and corporations will bankrupt. The stock market will crash, you and I will loose our jobs. Its all so complicated and intertwined that its destined for disaster.
Not to mention the other reasons why the US is so venerable, our currency is traded threw out the world and thus re-circulates threwout the economy. Massive debts are still owed to us by other countries, and by them just saying "Hey, we don't owe you squat anymore", that would be a massive blow to our economy alone.
How are we so venerable? We are so big, and the bigger the system the more prone and venerable it is. Its a simple law of physics.
Not to mention a lot of other countries want to see this whole 'free ride' that we have been experiencing end, for we have gone around and claimed many of the earths resource to feed our quality of life. We have a lot of people who dont like us and dont like what we are doing, and most likely wont sit around and watch us do it like they did in Iraq.
So you please ask my question, how is the US NOT venerable??
Not to mention the other reasons why the US is so venerable, our currency is traded threw out the world and thus re-circulates threwout the economy. Massive debts are still owed to us by other countries, and by them just saying "Hey, we don't owe you squat anymore", that would be a massive blow to our economy alone.
How are we so venerable? We are so big, and the bigger the system the more prone and venerable it is. Its a simple law of physics.
Not to mention a lot of other countries want to see this whole 'free ride' that we have been experiencing end, for we have gone around and claimed many of the earths resource to feed our quality of life. We have a lot of people who dont like us and dont like what we are doing, and most likely wont sit around and watch us do it like they did in Iraq.
So you please ask my question, how is the US NOT venerable??
-
skateari - Coal
- Posts: 486
- Joined: Sun 26 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
by Guest » Mon 04 Oct 2004, 15:42:26
ok. Let me make my argument as simple as i can.
Lets pretend that a human needs X resourses to survive.
Lets say that an african barely has with 1*X resourses and as a result barely survives.
Lets say that an indian has with 2*X resourses
Lets say that a european has 10*X resourses and has a nice time.
Now lets say that a USA person has 20*X resourses.
Peak oil will come and will reduce all resourses by say 2 times for the poor 3 times for the medium living and 4 times for the us the richest people.
Result ?
African dies.
Indian barely survive many die.
European ? Instead of having 10 times what he needs to survive he now has only 3 times (10/3)*X what he needs to survive.
USA ? instead of having 20 times what he needs to survive he now has only (20/4) =5 5 times more than he needs to survive.
So please do not despair. People at this time are very spoiled compared with everybody 1 century ago.2 centuries ago 30 people limed in a 1000 sf house an extended family.
Yes the party is over but people can change adapt and survive.
We will just not be that spoiled any more.
Lets pretend that a human needs X resourses to survive.
Lets say that an african barely has with 1*X resourses and as a result barely survives.
Lets say that an indian has with 2*X resourses
Lets say that a european has 10*X resourses and has a nice time.
Now lets say that a USA person has 20*X resourses.
Peak oil will come and will reduce all resourses by say 2 times for the poor 3 times for the medium living and 4 times for the us the richest people.
Result ?
African dies.
Indian barely survive many die.
European ? Instead of having 10 times what he needs to survive he now has only 3 times (10/3)*X what he needs to survive.
USA ? instead of having 20 times what he needs to survive he now has only (20/4) =5 5 times more than he needs to survive.
So please do not despair. People at this time are very spoiled compared with everybody 1 century ago.2 centuries ago 30 people limed in a 1000 sf house an extended family.
Yes the party is over but people can change adapt and survive.
We will just not be that spoiled any more.
- Guest
by skateari » Mon 04 Oct 2004, 16:39:32
The best argument you can make is playing a game of 'pretend'??
Can anyone who can back me up post on here (Markos, Monte, Soft_landing, anyone??). Why instead of making up 'pretend scenario games' to look at our future but instead research economics, capitalism, the term 'Limits to Growth', the dollar-euro currency war, research our debt-based economy, for christ sake research peak oil. All these things go hand in hand and will effect the most powerful economies first (because the most powerful are also the most venerable to collapse). Sure, other countries will suffer but not in the same way. Less developed countries have a chance at a soft-landing, but in economic terms for the US that wont be an option. Our debt-based economy needs economic growth or it simply collapses, therefor a soft-landing for the US is out of the equation. What we are doing now (Iraq, draft, re-deployment of troops) is to sustain our economy in order to keep it from collapse. Read, and you shall know.
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic1687.html
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic1362.html
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic1762.html
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic1545.html
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic1605.html
Read some of those threads. If you still don't grasp the concept of how our is vital to our government in order to keep it from collapse, then I don't think your brain was made to handle such compacity. Maybe the games of pretend might work for you, but in reality what you are saying makes no sense at all. Can anyone please back me up on this?
Can anyone who can back me up post on here (Markos, Monte, Soft_landing, anyone??). Why instead of making up 'pretend scenario games' to look at our future but instead research economics, capitalism, the term 'Limits to Growth', the dollar-euro currency war, research our debt-based economy, for christ sake research peak oil. All these things go hand in hand and will effect the most powerful economies first (because the most powerful are also the most venerable to collapse). Sure, other countries will suffer but not in the same way. Less developed countries have a chance at a soft-landing, but in economic terms for the US that wont be an option. Our debt-based economy needs economic growth or it simply collapses, therefor a soft-landing for the US is out of the equation. What we are doing now (Iraq, draft, re-deployment of troops) is to sustain our economy in order to keep it from collapse. Read, and you shall know.
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic1687.html
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic1362.html
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic1762.html
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic1545.html
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic1605.html
Read some of those threads. If you still don't grasp the concept of how our is vital to our government in order to keep it from collapse, then I don't think your brain was made to handle such compacity. Maybe the games of pretend might work for you, but in reality what you are saying makes no sense at all. Can anyone please back me up on this?
-
skateari - Coal
- Posts: 486
- Joined: Sun 26 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
- jrob8503
by smiley » Mon 04 Oct 2004, 16:58:25
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')y question is .
If USA defaults and simply refuses to pay any and all dept how will the rest of the world make them pay ?
By using UN troops ? I do not think so.
So when the real shock comes USA will just refuse to pay and and all dept.
If USA defaults and simply refuses to pay any and all dept how will the rest of the world make them pay ?
By using UN troops ? I do not think so.
So when the real shock comes USA will just refuse to pay and and all dept.
Chris, that question is easy to answer. Take a dollar note. On it you'll find the following writing.
THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE
This in effect means that the dollar is an IOU. Now what do you think will happen when the US defaults on its debts? The same when you default on your debts. Your IOU's becomes worthless.
That means that the USA cannot buy anything foreign anymore. No oil, no gas no metals, no food. The US has a trade deficit so acquiring gold or foreign currencies is not an option. In other words the USA would be bankrupt and facing shortages overnight.
UN troops would be traveling to the US alright, but it would be for providing humanitarian aid.
-
smiley - Intermediate Crude
- Posts: 2274
- Joined: Fri 16 Apr 2004, 03:00:00
- Location: Europe
by jato » Mon 04 Oct 2004, 17:05:30
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')instead of having 20 times what he needs to survive he now has only (20/4) =5 5 times more than he needs to survive.
This is not entirely true. It does not address the skyrocketing cost of energy. Also the depletion of oil will ruin our transportation system. Without transportation, we go back to the 1800s.
I believe there will be a crash (fast or slow). Primitive fuels will lead to a primitive lifestyle. It is the relatively rapid transition from peak of civilization to pre industrial times that I fear. It may take 50 years, but us young folk will still be alive by then.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o please do not despair. People at this time are very spoiled compared with everybody 1 century ago.2 centuries ago 30 people limed in a 1000 sf house an extended family.
This is true (more or less) we will be headed right back to those days.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')es the party is over but people can change adapt and survive.
We will just not be that spoiled any more.
Yes humans will survive. However, it will mean the end of the world as we know it (and I feel fine :D ).
- jato
