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'The Bottomless Well...' Peter W. Huber, Mark P. Mills

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'The Bottomless Well...' Peter W. Huber, Mark P. Mills

Unread postby donshan » Fri 02 Dec 2005, 19:20:29

The subtitle of this book is “The twilight of fuel, the virtue of waste, and why we will never run out of energy". The authors are Peter W. Huber, with a legal background, and Mark P. Mills, a physicist in integrated circuits and defense electronics.

Before I lose all you Peak Oil believers, let me explain why I bought this book, and why everyone who is trying to convince others about the serious nature of peak oil should read it too.

This new 2005 book will be cited by anyone trying to refute stories of a coming energy shortage to dismiss the peak oil case. Media reporters, politicians, CEOs, business leaders, economists, students, and non technical lay people; in fact all those who promote and have a stake in continued economic growth that requires unending growth in energy use and available supply, will seize on this well written book. They will use it to show that those people promoting the story of a coming fuel shortage just don’t understand the history and nature of energy and they are yet again promoting wrong ideas.

In order to counter this Cornucopian view of the future and those people who will use this book to prove their case, you need to know their arguments. I will attempt to a summarize a few of them to give you their logic, especially since they say "it is all about logic-and logic gates".

PLEASE don’t shoot the messenger! :-D

Many of the chapters give a very good history and details of the development of mankind’s use of energy, even including excellent discussions of the first and second laws of thermodynamics in lay terms. This book is filled with facts and statistics. It will cause you to reexamine your views about energy. It actually makes a great case for why we have such a productive society today built on energy and tells how we got here. It says that, not only is more and more energy useful and good, it is essential for growth (true!) and endless growth in energy supply and use is possible forever. However the book totally fails in at the end to make the case to me that this wonderful world will happen in time. In order to believe them, you have to extrapolate the past history of energy into the future and assume inventions and miracles will be here next year.

Start with the author’s assertion “supplies of energy are unlimited”. If you look at the Middle Ages for example, coal, oil, uranium, and even the knowledge of the power of steam all existed then. What was lacking was the technical understanding and the invention of key “logic” controls on how to build devices to utilize these energy sources to provide power for productive work. James Watt’s invention of the steam engine was really the “logic” of controlling the process- the ingenious valves that control the Carnot cycle.

The history of man is using ever more complicated and compact machines, to use increasingly concentrated fuels, to create increasing power density and productivity- from wood to coal to oil to uranium. The end is pure energy as electricity and high quality photons in fiber optic cables. People promoting solar and wind energy may be interested in the analysis of why starting with diffuse, low concentrated energy sources like sunlight and wind, it takes such expensive amounts of PV solar cells and wind turbines to equal a nuclear reactor which uses a concentrated energy source. Uranium 235 can be recovered from uranium ore and enriched using high quality laser light. Energy plus logic begets even more energy is the message. Oceans of deuterium await the fusion reactor.

One other example will illustrate the approach. The modern laser used in eye surgery takes about 6600 units of primary fuel to go through multiple conversions making higher and higher quality electricity and to ultimately get 100 units of high quality photons of laser light energy. The cost of this energy is extremely small compared with the cost of the intellectual property and equipment needed to get results. The cost of power for laser eye surgery is insignificant. The diffuse photons of the sun can’t do the job. Mankind finds expensive laser photons worth the cost. I could add so does everyone with a DVD player which uses a laser; not many worry about the power to run it.

One other example I found interesting affects those who propose going back to the “Amish” lifestyle. In 1910, 27 % of productive farmland was used to grow feed for horses. The description of the “carbohydrate” based economy may make the case that society will indeed collapse without oil, but that is not the objective here. They argue that oil allows using this land to be used for expanded production of human food. They go on to argue that reduction of land for horses and wood burning has actually reversed the destruction of trees in recent decades leading to more tree plantings, that are now removing more CO2 from the air than oil burning vehicles add to the air. REALLY? You better be prepared for the argument! When the rain forest peoples get super cheap- abundant electric power they too will be able to replant all those trees. WOW!

Where the book totally failed me at the end, was the argument that high tech robots roaming the deep oceans will find all the oil we need in the remaining huge oil reserves, just by using high tech seismic data to precisely hit every little pocket of oil remaining, regardless of depth. It is all written using just a few pages and will convince no one who knows the peak oil story. However, the carefully crafted language will convince many that highly intelligent technology can easily solve the growing oil needs well into the era of the all electric car powered from nuclear reactors (fission now-fusion later).

The chapter on the high tech electrical car made the case for me that a return of electrical powered mass transit is more likely than the author’s scenario, but this option does not come up. They did discuss the difficulties of hydrogen however.

In the end I was at first puzzled that, after the eloquent praise of higher and higher technology, they did not mention carbon nanotechnology and the promise for the buckytube fuel cells and batteries for their electric car. The did not mention Richard Smalley and his electric grid powered by the sun. Carbon nanotech fits the "technology to the rescue" story perfectly. It was then I realized this book is a subtle promotion of nuclear power and an electric future based on fission/fusion power. Solar power was dismissed in earlier chapters. Or maybe the were as ignorant of nanotechnology as they were about oil production.

I found it an interesting read, just not one that justified the title or came close to convincing me the they had an energy solution that will sustain our world for the next 50 years. At times I wondered if this was a book about comedy, I laughed so often. :-D

Edit added:
I neglected one very good chapter that everyone who thinks better energy efficiency standards will solve our problem should read. The chapter is "The Paradox of Efficiency". I would give them more credit if they cited Jevons paradox, but they used it anyway without doing their homework. The authors show the history of energy use is one of constantly increasing efficiency in the use of energy inputs in just about every use of energy from power plants to transportation to LED bulbs. The result of this increased efficiency is to increase the wider use of the technology and to INCREASE total energy use and production of total energy, especially electricity to meet this demand. This good chapter is a lesson for those who think we can solve the coming fuels shortage by only increasing fuel mileage by hybrid cars. More hybrids, absent other constraints on demand will mean more people world wide drive cars and more total fuel will be used. :cry:

Edit note- 2: See post below for the authors' specific hypothesis on infinite oil in the chapter 11 -Infinite supply. ( Is using "Chapter 11" a Freudian slip related to bankrupcy?)
Last edited by donshan on Sat 03 Dec 2005, 12:25:15, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Bottomless Well

Unread postby killJOY » Fri 02 Dec 2005, 19:42:25

Thank you.

Now I'm really depressed.
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Re: The Bottomless Well

Unread postby marek » Fri 02 Dec 2005, 22:40:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he history of man is using ever more complicated and compact machines, to use increasingly concentrated fuels, to create increasing power density and productivity- from wood to coal to oil to uranium.


True. The fact that we are running out of the most concentrated fuel of all (oil) will mean that this game will be coming to an end. Sure, there are still other concentrated fuels (uranium), but they only generate electricity. Besides, all concentrated fuels (coal, oil, natural gas, uranium) are non-renewable (although some, like uranium, can be extended many times by breeding and reprocessing). Fusion is a dream, at least for now. I wouldn't bet my future on it, although it would be wonderful if it happened. Wishful thinking does not guarantee an outcome, but the second law of thermodynamics does.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne other example will illustrate the approach. The modern laser used in eye surgery takes about 6600 units of primary fuel to go through multiple conversions making higher and higher quality electricity and to ultimately get 100 units of high quality photons of laser light energy.


Huber seems to have discovered the New World! Of course to get a highly concentrated form of energy (laser beam), one has to lose energy in the process. The ratio of usable energy (exergy) to thermal energy is always less than one. Huber used this argument to say that EROI is not a valid methodology, but in fact he completely misunderstood what EROI is. EROI is not about energy conversion, but about the energy that is used to deliver primary energy to the economy. Huber either doesn't understand this or purposely misleads the readers.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he cost of this energy is extremely small compared with the cost of the intellectual property and equipment needed to get results.


It's only because that energy is cheap that labor is expensive in comparison. If a barrel of oil holds enough energy to displace human muscle power for two years, and 40 hours per week * 104 weeks = 4160 hours, and given a minimum wage of 5 dollars, a barrel of oil should cost $20800.

Of course this is not to say that intellectual property is not important. It is just to put the price of oil and the energy it provides us in perspective with the price of labor.

This, by the way, is why economic growth theory fails to explain economic growth. If you look up the Solow growth model, you will realize that apart from the growth in labor supply and capital stock, the true source of growth, or "technological progress," is called the "Solow residual." This residual can be explained almost completely by the growth in exergy (usable energy) services.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he cost of power for laser eye surgery is insignificant. The diffuse photons of the sun can’t do the job. Mankind finds expensive laser photons worth the cost.


Again, because of cheap energy thanks to fossil fuels.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hey argue that oil allows using this land to be used for expanded production of human food.


True, and that's what worries me. The increased productivity resulting from pouring oil-based pesticides and herbicides, and natural gas-based fertilizer is the reason for greater agricultural productivity. Even this is coming at a cost of degrading topsoil. An inch of topsoil requires about one thousand years to form.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hey go on to argue that reduction of land for horses and wood burning has actually reversed the destruction of trees in recent decades leading to more tree plantings, that are now removing more CO2 from the air than oil burning vehicles add to the air. REALLY? You better be prepared for the argument! When the rain forest peoples get super cheap- abundant electric power they too will be able to replant all those trees. WOW!


It's true that burning fossil fuels is saving forests. After all, Britain's coal production began due to "peak wood." The rest of the argument is an unproved assertion. As the article in Nature shows, the CO2 concentrations are now higher than in the last 600,000 years, and most of this increase happened after the onset of the Industrial Revolution.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')here the book totally failed me at the end, was the argument that high tech robots roaming the deep oceans will find all the oil we need in the remaining huge oil reserves, just by using high tech seismic data to precisely hit every little pocket of oil remaining, regardless of depth.


Another techno--nonsense by the reincarnation of Julian Simon.

Perhaps the only point that I agree with Huber on is Jevons' Paradox. Increasing efficiency will cause the price of the resource being conserved to fall, and will therefore increase the quantity demanded. This is one more reason why the market won't solve the problem and why there needs to be government intervention.
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Re: 'The Bottomless Well...' Peter W. Huber & Mark P. Mi

Unread postby bobcousins » Sat 03 Dec 2005, 07:30:12

The problem with this type of book is they take a linear projection of past events into the future. In this case, they assume that technology just continues indefinitely.

In fact, technology is showing signs of diminishing returns. In all fields, the rate of progress per unit investment is slowing. More investment is required to get the same rate of advance.

There is also the misleading impression that advanced technology 'replaces' energy sources. In fact, we are using as much coal as we ever did, and almost as much wood. Nuclear power is barely economic without subsidy from fossil fuels.

Yet another misleading impression is that if we just turn our minds to it, we can make great discoveries. In fact, most of the great discoveries were made more or less accidental. When asked the use of electricity, Faraday wisely replied "one day you may be able to tax it".
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Re: 'The Bottomless Well...' Peter W. Huber & Mark P. Mi

Unread postby shakespear1 » Sat 03 Dec 2005, 07:53:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')They go on to argue that reduction of land for horses and wood burning has actually reversed the destruction of trees in recent decades leading to more tree plantings, that are now removing more CO2 from the air than oil burning vehicles add to the air. REALLY? You better be prepared for the argument! When the rain forest peoples get super cheap- abundant electric power they too will be able to replant all those trees. WOW!


So destroy the rainforest in the short run, and then in the near future the "enlightened" humans with re-engineer the diversity of the Amazon. Something that took Mother Nature milllions of years to do.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Oceans of deuterium await the fusion reactor.


Seeing how we mine, fish and deforest, I am certain that this operation will also be done in a enviornmentally friendly way.

They are certainly great optimists but I think they are not facing the reality of the situation. How we do things is completely unharmonious with our environment. No harmoney leads to trouble, and that is where we are headed. :roll:
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Re: 'The Bottomless Well...' Peter W. Huber & Mark P. Mi

Unread postby EnergySpin » Sat 03 Dec 2005, 08:08:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shakespear1', '
')So destroy the rainforest in the short run, and then in the near future the "enlightened" humans with re-engineer the diversity of the Amazon. Something that took Mother Nature milllions of years to do.


Billions ... you have to count bacteria and viruses too :)
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Re: 'The Bottomless Well...' Peter W. Huber & Mark P. Mi

Unread postby donshan » Sat 03 Dec 2005, 10:11:23

I would appreciate some help from one or more of those members of this Peal Oil forum who have experience in deep water directional drilling and the costs of the oil recovered. Please help me either DEBUNK Huber & Millls hypothesis, or if it is true, they have a point to make that the supply of oil may be infinite and Peak Oil is in doubt. The chapter title is "Infinite Supply".

They have a chart on page 173 showing that as more and more oil has been discovered the cost of oil has fluctuated between $1 and $5 per million BTU in constant year 2000 dollars but has not increased throughout the history of oil production. Assuming 5.8 million BTU per barrel, this is a cost of oil between $6 to $29 per barrel (my calculation). The $29 per barrel is the most recent number.

They then make the following statement on the same page 173:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Oil extracted today from beneath 2 miles of water and 4 miles of vertical rock, with 6 additional miles of horizontal drilling beyond that, costs less than the 60-foot oil Colonel Drake was extracting a century ago and about the same as one-mile oil cost in 1980.


• Are there actual deep ocean wells drilled today to 63,360 feet in total depth?

• Do these wells produce oil at a cost under $30/bbl?

• Is the deep ocean drilling process scaleable with advancing technology to any depth you want to hit an oil pocket in the future with no additional cost in the oil recovered?

* Does advancing technology in the future allow us to drill to any depth without the cost of oil going up?

* Are there an infinite number of small oil pockets that advancing seismic imaging can pinpoint to scale total production to any level needed, with the cost of recovered oil staying under $5 per million BTU?

It the answers are yes then the world's oil supply may be a "Bottomless Well".

If not the book is debunked. I need a quick come-back to be able to say they don't know oil drilling.

Help please.
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Re: 'The Bottomless Well...' Peter W. Huber & Mark P. Mi

Unread postby Hegel » Sat 03 Dec 2005, 23:11:28

At least they don't present notorious "abiotic oil" as an option. Besides that, both authors clearly failed the PO Idiot-Test with flying colours.
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Re: 'The Bottomless Well...' Peter W. Huber & Mark P. Mi

Unread postby WebHubbleTelescope » Sun 04 Dec 2005, 00:25:21

You got it wrong. Huber has a PhD in Mechanical Engineering.

Which makes his stance truly pathetic.
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Re: 'The Bottomless Well...' Peter W. Huber & Mark P. Mi

Unread postby donshan » Sun 04 Dec 2005, 01:33:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WebHubbleTelescope', 'Y')ou got it wrong. Huber has a PhD in Mechanical Engineering.

Which makes his stance truly pathetic.


Hmmm! I didn't find that in the book when I started the review, and I looked. Apparently he didn't want to admit it on the book jacket under his picture. This quote from the back cover is also misleading then, among other misleading statements.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')eter W. Huber is a senior fellow a the Manhatttan Institute's Center for Legal Policy where he specializes in issues in technology, science and law.


Reminds me of what academic degrees stand for:

BS = BS
MS = More of Same
PhD = Piled higher and Deeper. :)
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Re: 'The Bottomless Well...' Peter W. Huber & Mark P. Mi

Unread postby Guest » Sun 04 Dec 2005, 10:10:06

Donshan,
I'll try to answer your question about why it is doubtful that oil exists at the levels espoused by Huber, Mills, et al.

First, I highly recommend Kenneth Deffeyes book, Beyond Oil (2005), as it is well-written by a veteran oil geologist who understands exactly how and when oil was formed. There are seven specific geological criteria that must have been met in order for oil to form.

In the following I am referring to pages 14-16 of Deffeyes book, and I am heavily paraphasing the contents, but this info debunks Huber' & Mills writing (and Gold's too). Numbers 2 & 3 on this list of 7 are critical, but this process must not be understood or accepted by Huber, which is why I recommend books by oil geologists over engineers and physicists. Different disciplines and all three are important, but oil is a geological phenomenon, afterall. :-D:

Where Oil Came From

1) Organic rich-sediment rocks, which were formed when a circulation pattern developed that trapped marine nutrients, forming basically a nutrient trap. Phosphates adn nirates are usually the critical nutrients needed to produce carbon-rich sedimentary rocks. According to Deffyes:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')rganic-rich sedimentary rocks are not common; less than 1% percent of all sedimentary rocks contain more than 5% organiza carbon. If organic-rich sedimentary rocks were common, we would be swimming in oil.


2) Burying organic-rich sediments in rocks deeper than 7,500 feet takes then into a temperature range (about 175 F) that causes large organic molecules to break down into smaller pieices. Molecules with five to twenty carbon atoms are liquids: crude oil. Molecules with fewer than five carbon atoms are gases at room temperature and pressure: natural gas. Here the key element of this 2nd critiera as stated by Deffeyes (and known by any undergraduate geology student):

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') depth of 7,500 feet is called the "top of the oil window."


3. So, if you accept that deeper depths produce more pressure and thus more heat, it is this critical fact that debunks the whole deep drilling idea. (Note, we are not taking about the depth of water, which is irrelevent, but the depth of pockets containing sedimentary rock. Here's Deffeyes explaining the "oil window":

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')urying the sediments, or the oil, deeper than 15,000 feet continues the molecular breaking until the remaining product has only one carbon atom per molecule. That gas, almost pure methane (CH4), is often referred to as "dry" natural gas. The limit of 15,000 feet is the bottom of the oil window. If you are looking for oil, you need organic-rich sediments that have been buried, at some point in their hisytory, into but not deeper than the oil window.


4. Here's Deffyes on how oil gets trapped, which is surprising little:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')fter liquid crude oil is liberated within the oil window, it tends to migrate upward. The oil is not soluable in water and it floats upward b/c it is lighter than water. Most oil, at least 90% percent, finds it way to the surface as oil seeps. The remaining 10% (or less) gets trapped underground in places that are not well connected to the surface, such as domes, fossil reefs, sand lenses, and even a few meteorite impact sites.


5. Deffyes discusses how oil is trapped in rocks, not in big "open caverns," etc. Also discusses how roughly half of the world's oil comes from sandstone reserviors (Middle East), and the other half comes from limestone and dolomite.

6. Discussion of the need for pores in the rocks for oil or gas to flow, a process mesured/termed as "permeability."

7. Lastly, Deffeyes makes the point that atleast one rock layer b/t the oil reservior and surface must have a leak-tight seal, called a "cap rock."

If six of these critieria exist, but one element does not, oil will not form. As Deffeyes explains, anything below 15,000 feet is below the 'oil window,' there will not be large enough molecules than still contain a hydrocarbon molecular structure. Well, I hope this info helps.
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Re: 'The Bottomless Well...' Peter W. Huber & Mark P. Mi

Unread postby donshan » Sun 04 Dec 2005, 14:32:54

Guest,
Thanks for the input from Deffeyes book "Beyond Oil". I have that book already and was also very impressed by Deffeyes clear explanation as to why oil is so rare. The importance of item 7 is extremely important, since Deffeyes points out that without the impermeable layer, even if oil forms, it will have diffused and dispersed to the surface over geological time and has been lost except for traces. I also liked his explanation that oil shale is a formation that didn't quite make it to a normal oil reservoir because Mother Nature flunked one or more of the parameters of the oil window.

The extreme rarity of all 7 geological conditions required for oil deposits occurring simultaneously in one place in the earth's geology is sort of like the slot machine odds where you have to have all seven "7s" line up in order to win anything.

This point needs wider understanding in the media. This answers the point that you can't just punch a hole anywhere on earth to any depth and find oil, unless you want to defend the "abiotic oil" fiction. Abiotic oil can be debunked by the enormous number of deep holes drilled in other types of geological formations hunting for mineral ore deposits that have never found a trace of oil in the process. Ditto very deep natural gas wells do not find oil.

The only problem with Deffeyes' story of oil formation is how to condense it into a 15 second sound bite, using common everyday words, to counter the sound bite: " The prophets of the end of oil have had this story for decades and they have always been proven wrong" .

My slot machine sentence is an attempt.

I am still hoping for someone from the oil industry with real world drilling facts ( i don't) to comment on the accuracy of the authors' quote about the economics of drilling for infinite small pockets of oil where oil is in fact found by ever improving high tech seismic methods.

It seems to me that the argument would be that there is no way, even with the best technology to tap small pockets of oil, to offset the declines in production RATES from the big reservoirs now being used, regardless of how many small oil pockets exist. In other words it is a rate controlled problem, and qualitative arguments do not suffice.

An example I use is that it is theoretically possible to bail out Lake Michigan with a teacup. All one has to do is move the cup fast enough to get ahead of all the water inflows into the lake. Would even a million people with teacups do the job? I noticed that bucket brigades were not suggested to bail out New Orleans. Drilling for a million small pockets of oil is just like using teacup and bucket brigade flow rates to try to match the massive flows we now get from Ghawar et. al.
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