[NTBKtrader]

Peak oil has to do with the decline and consumption of liquid fuels. However, more and more there has been a far left jaunt trying to get their opinion in on Bush, Global Warming, Fascism, Iraq, Israel, etc etc etc.

Peak Oil has also brought the attention of the very far right.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=222029


For the 'moderates' and 'centrists' out there I was wondering how we can bring Peak Oil out of being used for a political football by extremist political agendas both on the right and left and bring it 'back' to the center? This forum needs to be about Peak Oil not furthering political agendas but I fear it's falling into political chaos...

[abbcampbell]

I quite agree. As long as we are percieved to have an agenda other than informing the public about a problem, the message of the problem will be seen as a propaganda windup to whatever agenda the proposer espouses.

Our proper agenda now needs to be getting the public informed, so political pressure can be brought to bear on all parties to come up with their own solutions.

[Battle_Scarred_Galactico]

Judging by the monumental amount of apathy on the subject, I don't think PO is going to gain any credibility until the worst comes to pass. Maybe not even then.

[Ludi]

Do you see the idea of adhering to the physical laws of this universe to be a political agenda? Because I think some people see the idea of, for instance, ecology (which is a science), as a political idea, because of "environmentalists" and "ecofreaks" etc who often are seen as lefties (though some kinds of "ecofreaks" are to the right).

Personally I'm not really seeing this issue being politicized in a bad way; if it gets out to the public notice at all will be a good thing.


Besides, everything in human affairs is political.

[TorrKing]

Most discussions here are about peak oil. Factors in this picture, whether it be climatical change and politics will of course have to be adressed. It is impossible to prevent it from spinning a little out of hand from time to time.

Especially in periods where there is little happening on the oil front, members will probably search a little farther to find something to discuss. Am I right?

And I have seen examples of racism. I find it ok that people understand that racism may be a factor in future conflicts, but it is not ok to embrace and promote it. Though everyone knows that in a conflict, blood is thicker than water, we should realize that everyone else feels the same way and has the same right to act on it.

Torjus Gaaren

[Gorm]

I do not see the problem with those on that site diskussing among them self about peak -oil and what will come about. Every person who changes his or hers life in order to meet the cahallenges will be less of a problem. One less to worry about so to speak.

The big problem is not those guys, it is those who doesnt speak about it.

[Heineken]

Peak Oil is not a political agenda. It is a set of geological facts, as Ludi indicated, and their associated consequences. How can facts lose credibility?

[killJOY]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')or the 'moderates' and 'centrists' out there I was wondering how we can bring Peak Oil out of being used for a political football by extremist political agendas both on the right and left and bring it 'back' to the center?

[abbcampbell]

I, for one, have an agenda, certainly.

While I'm not the one you're challenging, let me chime in. Almost all of us who have an agenda related to Peak Oil, if not all of us, have our agenda best served by making people aware of the problem.

The problem is very distasteful, and people, being what they are, will look for any reason to dismiss the problem and not think about it.

An easy way for them to dismiss it is to see that an agenda is being pushed, and decide they don't like that agenda. A right winger may say, "Ah, just a bunch of tree-hugging hippie crap again." A left winger may say, "Just another big-business ploy to drill ANWR and the coastal shelf."

In both cases, they miss the point. In both cases, everyone looses.

It's better, IMHO, to simply introduce them to the problem without pushing any agenda...just tell them there is a problem and that we don't have an answer yet, but we need their help to find one. Tell them that different folks have wildly differing answers, and give them a balanced introduction to the debate if they ask for it.

Most folks will then, once they see the problem, look into solutions of one sort or another, and that's where they find all of our varied takes and agendas and can make their decisions.

It's very true that PO is not a political entity. We need to be sure to present PO in that fashion and let people choose a solution based on the merits of that solution once they've understood the problem. If you tie your solution to the problem from the outset, it's too easy for people to go into denial.

I speak from experience here. Check out my avvy. It's the Once-ler from Dr. Seuss's "The Lorax". The Once-ler was the bad guy of the story, who poluted and consumed, and only realized his error at the end. I'd rather people realize their error sooner. Don't give them a scapegoat. Don't give them an easy way to pretend that PO is just a straw man for your our political agendas, whatever they may be.

Don't make it easy.

[Leanan]

I don't see any way of getting politics out of peak oil. The big problem that peak oil represents is inherently political. That is, how are we going to apportion too few resources among too many people? That is the very essence of politics.

[thuja]

There is, and will never be, one uniform voice here and that is how it should be. This site is a forum for the little guy- from the tree-hugging leftists, to the market-driven economists, to the racist nazis. As far as I'm concerned I want to hear everyone's point (within reason). I can shut out what is distasteful or incendiary.

The geologic facts of peak oil will become plain to see soon enough to the entire world. Then it becomes the mother of all political footballs. Where do we allocate money? Who's responsible? How quickly should we respond? etc. etc. If you want to push a particular agenda for dealing with the problem, create a web site. This one lets it all hang out and that's why I love it.

[aflurry]

Well, to some degree the subject matter by nature places PO in an extreme political environment. This is partially because the potential consequences are so extreme, and because the changes necessary for any meaningful mitigation of these consequences would also be extreme. So by nature, centrism is ill equiped to address the issue. If a centrist were to use centrist language to descibe Peak Oil, they would either not be faithful to the problem or they would cease to be a centrist.

To put KillJoy's point another way, if centrism represents the middle of the bell curve of political thinking that got us where we are today, and where we are today is revealed by PO to be a long and narrow dead end, the centrists are squarely implicated in that problem.

To the extent that we organize our political thinking around the centrist agenda (which is not inhenrently moderate and fair, but perhaps appears to be that way by virtue of its centrality), we are continuing doggedly along the road that led us to this problem.

To be sure, political extremism carries its own significant dangers, notably the use and abuse of fear as a political weapon. But lately it is becoming clear that the centrists use these weapons with the same force. Is it an accident that we have settled on the word "terror" to describe our new enemies?

I waffle between extremism and caution, myself. Political solutions seem so dangerous to me in any form. I have seen enough chaos in my own personal life to understand that at times there may be no solution. But then I suppose you get called an apathetic sheeperson or nihilist.

[abbcampbell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('leanan', 'T')he big problem that peak oil represents is inherently political. That is, how are we going to apportion too few resources among too many people? That is the very essence of politics.

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') feel it's essential to make folks' introductions to this notion as sanitary as possible.

[abbcampbell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') feel it's essential to make folks' introductions to this notion as sanitary as possible.

[CARVER]

This site has made me aware of so many things, and I learn something new here every time I check it out. There is a lot of expertise here, and you get to hear different sides of the story. This site and the members do a great job of informing me, and trying to answer the questions I have. It also allows me to spill my thoughts and get feedback from others. What I believe from it all is up to me, but at least I'm informed.

We are dealing with a lot of interconnected issues here. I think it is good that we don't just look at PO in isolation. I like it when people point out connections that I had not thought of myself. If you think someone is wrong about something, you can just post your point of view.

[Leanan]

Okay, I think I'm starting to understand what you mean.

There are a lot of Web sites out there that deal with peak oil. You don't have to send people here, or to Matt Savinar's site, or to FTW. I like this one:

http://www.oilcrisis.com/debate/udall/joyride.htm

For offline proselytizing, there's the peak oil poster:

http://www.oilposter.org/

If there's nothing out there that does what you want, you can always make your own Web site or blog.

(BTW, if you need graphics, I might be able to do them for you. And I've got free energy-related clip art and such here.)

[Jake_old]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CARVER', 'T')his site has made me aware of so many things, and I learn something new here every time I check it out. There is a lot of expertise here, and you get to hear different sides of the story. This site and the members do a great job of informing me, and trying to answer the questions I have. It also allows me to spill my thoughts and get feedback from others. What I believe from it all is up to me, but at least I'm informed.

We are dealing with a lot of interconnected issues here. I think it is good that we don't just look at PO in isolation. I like it when people point out connections that I had not thought of myself. If you think someone is wrong about something, you can just post your point of view.

[tsakach]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'I') don't see any way of getting politics out of peak oil. The big problem that peak oil represents is inherently political. That is, how are we going to apportion too few resources among too many people? That is the very essence of politics.

[Colorado-Valley]

Peak oil is geological, and really isn't a problem.

How society deals with it is extremely political, and involves issues of life and death.