[abbcampbell]

Doomers, optimists, hard landing folks, and soft landing folks, I have a question for all of you. First, let's look at our common ground:

It seems almost everyone here agrees on one thing. At some point world oil production will (or perhaps has) peak and go into an overall irreversible decline...

Almost everyone who agrees with that also agrees that this will have an impact on our society...

Almost everyone who thinks it will have an impact on our society, also believes that society as a whole are better off preparing for that impact than not...

Okay, if you're still in agreement with me, even if you think I'm wildly understating things, this question is for you:


What do you feel is the best way to inform people so that they can take the relevant action...whatever you believe that to be.

I've tried a few approaches to this, and I'm curious about whether my experiences synch up with yours.

If I approach things from a "The world is in deep trouble" stance, people ignore it,. Whether this is because they are used to doomsayers of various types being "nutcases," or because they are psychologically avoiding the issue, I don't know, and I'd argue that distinction is pretty much irrelevant.

For example, let me use LATOC. Whether Mr. Savinar is right or wrong is beyond me, and I'm not here to debate that. I am no expert. Still most folks I mention his site to rapidly dismiss it for whatever reason. Clearly, introducing people to the notion of Peak Oil via something that says that Peak Oil is a non-issue is also unlikely to get people to take it seriously.

Frankly, my own relative doomerism/optimism changes frequently, but as one of those who will be dead soon after TSHTF if Mr. Savinar and his peers are correct, for medical reasons if nothing else, I have little option but to plan for a more optimistic outcome....nothing to lose, everything to gain.

I've tried directing folks to www.oilscenarios.info with some success, since they present points of view from the cornucopian through the doomer in a relatively unbiased fashion.

My best success seems to be in a socratic approach though...asserting nothing myself, but simply asking questions like, "So, what do you think will happen as we start to run out of oil?"...and take it from there.

Whether people need to study fusion, photovoltaics, conservation and efficiency, bicycle repair, or flint-knapping and hide tanning hardly matters, we need to make folks aware of the problem before they can take any action at all, and it seems to me to be more important to make people aware of the problem than it is to push our own "solutions."

What are your experiences?

Mods: Apologies in advance if this is the wrong forum, but I'll be darned if I could figure out which one was right.

{Moved to the Welcome forum by MQ}

[SarahC1975]

How did you find out about it? Whatever worked on you is likely to work with your friends and family.

I've found either people listen or they don't. The particular site or book doesn't make that much of a difference. Maybe a little, but not that much.

Sarah C.

[killJOY]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')or example, let me use LATOC. Whether Mr. Savinar is right or wrong is beyond me, and I'm not here to debate that. I am no expert. Still most folks I mention his site to rapidly dismiss it for whatever reason.

[Daryl]

I would suggest screaming, "We're running out of oil! We're all going to die!!!!" Then fall to the ground and pretend you are having an epileptic seizure.

[seldom_seen]

Hand them a copy of "End of Suburbia" and say..."hey I saw this movie here and it got me thinking...I value your opinion so let me know what you think of it?"

That is the approach my PO buddy uses, which I think is an excellent approach. People like movies, and End of Suburbia is well done.

[SarahC1975]

It's important to establish what you mean by "success." Is your primary concern educating people about the problem? Or are you concerned about the social ramifications of conveying this information to others?

If the former, stick with the so-called "doomsayers." If the later, stick with "optimists."

The problem is that people who believe the "optimists" tend never to modify their behavior.

Sarah C.

[azreal60]

From the moderator point of view, the only forum that comes closer to being correct is psychology. That's all i could think of, and even that is not a perfect fit. We do try to fit topics to forum very well, but as we aren't perfect, and peakoil is such a huge range of a topic, it won't fit perfect each time. I would say given peakoil discussion is a more general type of forum, it works fine.

I have gotten great results with a few things.

A series of leading questions.
Herd the person towards the ideas you just proposed. Be ready with rebuttals to possible objections they might come up with. I can't tell you how many times i have heard, but we will invent something that will replace oil. My comment is, when and what is it? Follow with, if you can't answer those questions right now, it's not going to stop peak oil from happening.

Although it looks more at the agricultural side of life as in regaurds to resources, the books of Daniel Quinn definately apply as towards why it's going to be so hard to change our society. They are what got me looking at the whole idea of resource depletion, and they are damn good fiction stories to boot. Plus in his books he looks at methods of teaching people ideas they don't nessesarily want to hear. That alone is worth the price of admission.

[johnmarkos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SarahC1975', 'T')he problem is that people who believe the "optimists" tend never to modify their behavior.

[FatherOfTwo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', 'W')hat sort of behavior modification does the pessimistic point of view promote?

[foodnotlawns]

I go to personals on www.craigslist.com and send non-commital e-mails to the desperate females, especially the hippie, earthy, or liberal ones.

I'm not trying to date them, I e-mail ones that are far away as well as near. I want to get an e-mail conversation going, and all I do is send them links like LATOC and Kunstler and this site.

Some blow it off and ask if I still have hair, but others are interested. All the more so because I keep it platonic, they think I am being coy.

As the tension builds (on their end) I reply with more extreme "90% of people are going to die, it's physically impossible for the earth to sustain 7 buillion people"

Some of them really freak out. It's fun to watch. It's like, they care and shit. It bothers them to think of billions of useless eaters dying. So we get into philosophical discussions like,

"Do people deserve to exist just because they are alive? Don't you think modern civilization is sustaining a lot of worthless people?"

I want to break down their dogmatic belief in silly notions like "universal human rights" and also spread the good news of the coming dieoff.

[SarahC1975]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FatherOfTwo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', 'W')hat sort of behavior modification does the pessimistic point of view promote?

[ashurbanipal]

I usually employ drugs and mind-altering rays in a tiny metal room with a single chair, a lamp, a 2-way mirror, and dental equipment.

But I'm not having very much luck, so I was considering just basically explaining it to people without sounding too freakish, and hopefully that will do the trick. I don't think everyone has to agree with me (despite the fact that I tend to argue in a civil but strong manner). I could be wrong, as could anyone. I just explain what I know, and let people decide what is best for them to do.

[SarahC1975]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('foodnotlawns', 'I') go to personals on www.craigslist.com and send non-commital e-mails to the desperate females, especially the hippie, earthy, or liberal ones.

I'm not trying to date them, I e-mail ones that are far away as well as near. I want to get an e-mail conversation going, and all I do is send them links like LATOC and Kunstler and this site.

Some blow it off and ask if I still have hair, but others are interested. All the more so because I keep it platonic, they think I am being coy.

As the tension builds (on their end) I reply with more extreme "90% of people are going to die, it's physically impossible for the earth to sustain 7 buillion people"

Some of them really freak out. It's fun to watch. It's like, they care and shit. It bothers them to think of billions of useless eaters dying. So we get into philosophical discussions like,

"Do people deserve to exist just because they are alive? Don't you think modern civilization is sustaining a lot of worthless people?"

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', '
')
What sort of behavior modification does the pessimistic point of view promote?

[abbcampbell]

Thanks, folks, for the answers so far, and please keep 'em coming.

As for the optimist/doomer debate, though, please, so much as possible, let's leave it out of this thread. I do have an opinion, which is somewhere between optimist and doomer, and I'll be happy to discuss/debate it in another venue, but please let's not let it sidetrack this thread, which should deal with something germane to all of us all of us,...getting the word out. (Unless your particular stance is that it would be better for folks to not know about PO...)

To the person who asked how I found out about PO, I found out by Googling "Oil Prices" this summer, when I was curious why they were rising. I found Matt Savinar's site, and it did a good job of educating me...however there were two problems...at least problems from my point of view. First, I very nearly committed suicide, since, assuming he's correct, I'll be dying later and more horribly than a relatively comfortable suicide today, since medicine I need will not be available if he's right.

Secondly, the notion that what "worked" for me works for my friends and family is not true, at least in my case. The few who I've pointed in that direction have been downright disdainful. I've tried the approach of what I thought would have been the best introduction for me, and that is what I mentioned above... It's not that oilscenarios.info didn't work for me, or wouldn't have, it's that LATOC simply has more "Google Points" and I read it first.

[DigitalCubano]

In my experience, it seems that the best approach is to bring up the subject whenever the conversation is appropriate. Otherwise it just comes off as some kind of proselytizing. The best example was the period of $3+ gas this past summer. Seems like everyone was talking about the price of gas and everyone had an opinion (informed or otherwise) as to the causes. That was a perfect opportunity to broach and debate this whole issue. That was also the only time that most folks were ready to give a damn. I'm not judging, but folks are willing to pay attention only when need be. Otherwise, it's drink and be merry.

I guess my suggestion is to broach the subject if and when people start lamenting their home heating or auto gas bills again.

[foodnotlawns]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SarahC1975', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('foodnotlawns', 'I') go to personals on www.craigslist.com and send non-commital e-mails to the desperate females, especially the hippie, earthy, or liberal ones.

I'm not trying to date them, I e-mail ones that are far away as well as near. I want to get an e-mail conversation going, and all I do is send them links like LATOC and Kunstler and this site.

Some blow it off and ask if I still have hair, but others are interested. All the more so because I keep it platonic, they think I am being coy.

As the tension builds (on their end) I reply with more extreme "90% of people are going to die, it's physically impossible for the earth to sustain 7 buillion people"

Some of them really freak out. It's fun to watch. It's like, they care and shit. It bothers them to think of billions of useless eaters dying. So we get into philosophical discussions like,

"Do people deserve to exist just because they are alive? Don't you think modern civilization is sustaining a lot of worthless people?"

[abbcampbell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('foodnotlawns', '
')
The logic of proper altruism is this -- help those who are likely to help you. This is what Whitey has forgotten. Starving babies in Africa will not grow up to help you. They will either do nothing for your interests at best, or they'll come here and harm your interests.

[foodnotlawns]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('abbcampbell', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('foodnotlawns', '
')
The logic of proper altruism is this -- help those who are likely to help you. This is what Whitey has forgotten. Starving babies in Africa will not grow up to help you. They will either do nothing for your interests at best, or they'll come here and harm your interests.

[foodnotlawns]

I don't mean to derail your thread. A free dating site like Craig's List is a fantastic place to talk one on one with someone about Peak Oil. Give it a try. Go for the hippie liberal types.