[Raxozanne]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')ezakin, I want you to answer this question:
When is enough, enough?

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')ezakin, I want you to answer this question:

When is enough, enough?

[GenghisKen]

If the problems of PeakOil were the only problems we had I would be cautious about the future(drive less etc.). If Peak natural gas were the only problem I would buy a wood stove. If uranium didnt have a Peak I wouldnt worry about the future being a place without light. If we werent at Peak farm land I wouldn't worry about food(suburbs CAN"T feed us).
I wouldn't worry about any of it if we could actually turn money into real resources but the only thing it seem we can make lots of is paper(money). Seems to me the one thing we really need is Peak People (or rather Peak consumers).

[Battle_Scarred_Galactico]

"the one thing we really need is Peak People"


We will get it.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('o2ny', ' ')I believe PO is the sympton of a mindset- a way of seeing ourselves and the world that is hardwired- it is a survivalist, individualist mode of living which is primarily geared to pursue wealth, status, and security for the short-term...But I wouldn't choose to call this mindset a 'disease' because human nature is just that- 'nature'- and it has served humanity well enough to get us this far.

[DefiledEngine]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')History tells us that this mindest is not hardwired nor human nature per se, but a world view based upon a certain paradigm of thinking.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DefiledEngine', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')History tells us that this mindest is not hardwired nor human nature per se, but a world view based upon a certain paradigm of thinking.

[DoctorDoom]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')Population growth has been trending down and if we stay on course we will only add
another 3 billion. If we don't stay on course, we will double to 13 billon in 54 years at 1.3% growth. I don't find adding another 3 billion people fortunate, nor reassuring.

[ashurbanipal]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')uddhists practices mindfulness in all aspects of daily life, not just on the meditation cushion. It is very hard! But the idea is if one is mindful and present, the happiness of the moment gives insight to the emotional drive of why one wants a Hummer, or a McMansion, or would want to go to war etc....

[Raxozanne]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '
')I agree that spirituality is the proper remedy for the materialism that has prevailed for so long. But what kind of spirituality? I'm betting it probably won't be any of the old religions, though elements of all of them will survive.

[DefiledEngine]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Nuclear power won't scale?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raxozanne', 'H')ow about animism?

[o2ny]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'O')ur current world view is based upon classical, or "Newtonian mechanics" after Sir Isaac Newton and his laws of motion. Big thinkers of the time concluded that the world was one of mathematical precision, not confusion. The Greek view of history was deemed mathematically impossible and therefore false. The Christian world view fared little better.

The answer, it was assumed, was to use the principles of mechanics to rearrange the stuff of nature in a way that best advanced the material self-interest of human beings: The more material well-being we amass, the more ordered the world must be getting. Progress, then, is the amassing or ever greater amounts of material abundance which leads to a more ordered world. Science and technology are the tools to get the job done. Reduced to its simplest abstraction, progress is seen as the process by which the "less ordered" natural world is harnessed by people to create a more ordered material environment.

This re-ordering has limits.

We are reaching them. The law of diminishing returns reigns.

The maintenance costs are becoming prohibitive.

Time for another paradigm shift in our thinking towards the world and our place in it.

[holmes]

Most of my friends and I have been retreating from the swarm our whole lives. First the east coast then Seattle, then portland metro area, then portland suburbs, etc.. My one friend has been retreating form the swrm and its endless filth and death. He is in his 50s now and is tired of retreating. He stopped ina rural area in colorado. Its not going to be rural for much longer though. the swarm is moving in and bringing all their parasitic vices. This will be the story of my life until death. My one future child, girlfriend and me. The swarm consumes, destroys, degrades, murders and breeds. repeat. it is a parasitic dysfunctional swarm. It loves mysery and contamination. it flees the death however it drags it along with it. this swarm IS death. Goodbye and good luck.

[Colorado-Valley]

Buddhist thought, to me, is the paradym shift, Monte, whether practiced by Buddhists or not.

The practice cultivates mindfullness, and the realization that the ego is programmed at any early age to desire pleasure, and to try to avoid suffering.

This approach to life works okay for a five-year-old, but not so great for an adult or a culture. It just creates a wheel of ever-deepening suffering and grasping.

The practicality of Buddhist thought is awakening from the habitual patterns of ego thought. Our consumer society seeks to reinforce the habitual patterns through advertising and marketing. You MUST have a Hummer to feel complete, even if it makes you a deeply indebted work slave living a life of quiet desperation.

Someone who practises mindfulness and awakes from the dream can find happiness in a simple flower arranged elegantly in a vase. Or can appreciate the wildness and wonder of nature without the filters. Or can find joy in simple acts of compassion to fellow beings.

Really, its a way to become fully awake to the universe, versus living in the dream of fear and desire. It's a sort of humility that is very noble.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DoctorDoom', ' ')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')Let's make an effort to not try and debate all these issues in this thread.

[scordry]

Well, if we're really going to be broad and open this thing up with an eye towards solutions, I'd like to throw my two-cents in and hope that his thread isn't so politically correct as to reject off-hand what I'm about to offer.

As for what spirituality might look like in 100yrs, that is hard to tell, but one thing that is certain is that it will be closely connected with the difficulty of life for whichever group of people is in question. Studies of religion among Native Americans have revealed that those with relatively "easy" lives (meaning abundant food, water and shelter) had fairly well-developed pantheons with different types of deities, etc. On the otherhand, other peoples lived under harsh conditions and barely survived; these latter groups had virtually no formal religion and even no marriage or funeral ceremonies.

This can be seen in contemporary situations as well: trendy, upscale American Buddhism is very philosophical and seems to completely lack the ancestor worship of its Eastern practioners where they are considerably poorer; new age thought and Wikken ideas are the animisms of Western affluents, and they are quite different from their counter parts in Central America/Carribean which involve ritual sacrifice and "magic"; and flashy, mega-church, Prayer-of-Jabez toting American evangelicalism contrasts with "low-brow" charismatic Christianity that is popular in developing countries.

So if we seek a solution to our broader problem in the form of spirituality, which I agree is the solution, we have to look at the root or core ideas of any spiritual system (because that system will be manifest in culturally-dependent ways--as I tried to indicate above).

For me, despite the black marks on its history, I think the core idea of Christianity is the way to go. That core is forgiveness--unconditional forgiveness with no strings attached. (I'm not saying that other religions don't have a concept of forgiveness, only that I think the notion of forgiveness is more paramount in Christianity.)

As a Christian, the solution to me is that we must forgive each other for being selfish--including ourselves. We have been selfish toward the planet, too--but it's only been recently that we've known the true depths of our selfhishness and how it has scarred the environment.

The giving and recieving of forgiveness is what brings about the transformation that is needed to save us in the end.

Without forgiveness, every technological development, new political structure, or monetary policy simply becomes yet another tool for inflicting damage on each other and the planet.

My two-cents.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('o2ny', ' ')the concept of humanity as a virus on this planet, or our current way of thinking as a 'disease' just seems wrong to me.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Colorado-Valley', ' ')Buddhist thought, to me, is the paradym shift, Monte, whether practiced by Buddhists or not.

Our consumer society seeks to reinforce the habitual patterns through advertising and marketing.

Someone who practises mindfulness and awakes from the dream can find happiness in a simple flower arranged elegantly in a vase. Or can appreciate the wildness and wonder of nature without the filters. Or can find joy in simple acts of compassion to fellow beings.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('scordry', 'S')o if we seek a solution to our broader problem in the form of spirituality, which I agree is the solution, we have to look at the root or core ideas of any spiritual system (because that system will be manifest in culturally-dependent ways--as I tried to indicate above).