[thuja]

Are you baiting them Roger?

Really the point will be moot soon enough anyways. As we move into times of increasingly expensive energy and the inflation and increased interest rates associated with it, there will be greater hardship for the poorer classes of any nation, but especially third world nations where the per capita income is minimal.

Neoliberalist approaches and World bank lending to "strengthen" the economies of the third world will be a remnant of pre PO times. How can these countries ever pay back debt during these times? Any debt taken on will only further cripple their economies and impoverish their citizens. Neoliberalist policies are meeting the "limits to growth" and ending the idea that rich countries lending policies will be the tide that raises all ships.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'N')o "jaws" or "MrBill" response to claims that IMF and WorldBank work against the interests of African nations?

Do we call that a conclusion?

[thuja]

IMF: I know you're poor and you have no way to get money except through us. here, have a bunch of money. Build some roads and power plants. Just make sure you privatize everything and allow foreign corporations to come in and remove your natural resources while using your labor at a dirt cheap premium.

Third World Country: Do we have a choice?

IMF: Ummm, no.

[cube]

tosses in 2 cents:

The IMF is the global equivalent of "Check-n-Go". We've all seen these stores in poor neighborhoods before. They lend money out to people with a subpar credit history at high interest rates.....like 25%. I've heard of some loans going up to 100%...it all depends on how bad your credit history is.

On one hand you can argue these "lending institutions" are exploiting the people. On the other hand you can argue nobody forced these people to take out these loans.....they made the design on their own free will.

If the IMF were to cease to exist, the world would be a better place, IMHO. Sure some poor nation will cry for help and beg for a loan. But it's better to let it go bankrupt and default on it's current loans rather then give them a large loan which everybody knows they'll default on it in the future.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '
')
On one hand you can argue these "lending institutions" are exploiting the people. On the other hand you can argue nobody forced these people to take out these loans.....they made the design on their own free will.

If the IMF were to cease to exist, the world would be a better place, IMHO. Sure some poor nation will cry for help and beg for a loan. But it's better to let it go bankrupt and default on it's current loans rather then give them a large loan which everybody knows they'll default on it in the future.

[katkinkate]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '.')... Have you ever noticed that MOST rich people in America are self made? Granted they may have stepped on a couple toes (or crushed a few ) to obtain their wealth but there's nothing keeping you or anyone else here from doing the same.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '.')... Have you ever noticed that MOST rich people in America are self made? Granted they may have stepped on a couple toes (or crushed a few ) to obtain their wealth but there's nothing keeping you or anyone else here from doing the same.

[threadbear]

The denunciation of the poor, based upon the idea that talent and brains trump all, indicates a poor understanding of the basic numbers game, as Rogerhb describes. The justifications for the class war, in this case indicate the war against basic arithmetic has not been won.

[thuja]

I tend to think "Post-PO" will go in stages- the first stage being punctuated by recessions and mini- recoveries, but generally ever worsening economic conditions. In this stage the middle class is likely to slip into greater poverty as jobs are lost, modest portfolios decrease in value, housing prices slip and inflation increases the cost of everything. In this stage, those that can hold onto professional jobs will hold a tenuous grasp on being middle class while the rest slip into poverty.

The intelligent wealthy investor who moves their wealth into smart avenues for investment such as commodities/arable land/energy may do quite well while less smart wealthy investors may lose their shirt and descend in social class.

The second stage of post-PO will be something altogether different however. If we do not recover from this recessionary period by powering down and switching to alternative energy sources, we could enter a very dark and possible violent/anarchic time. In this situation, brute force could possibly be the main determinent of social class with those who control land and resources through violence having the upper hand over the rest. In this situation, previous access to asset portfolios, land and precious metal ownership could be trumped by those willing to acquire and steal through violent means. Previous class distinctions would wither and only those who could control their ability to have warm shelter and access food, water and clothing would be the new "elite" class.

Even if we find the means to power down and maintain a semblance of government, law and order during this second stage, I believe access to basic sustenance will trump portfolios and that the ownership of land/home near descent resources will trump the best multi-million dollar home owners in resource poor/overpopulated areas. We are likely to see a drastic shift in class dynamics during this time.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'N')o "jaws" or "MrBill" response to claims that IMF and WorldBank work against the interests of African nations?

Do we call that a conclusion?

[thuja]

Yes- corruption plays a significant part in syphoning off funds from these lending institutions and very little of it "trickles down". I wanted to point you all to an interesting article in Newsweek discussing the erosion of the middle class and the increasing disparity between rich and poor. Its not a classic liberal rant and it offers some interesting ideas such as microloans and opening up universities to the underpriveleged. Good article anyways -check it out...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10019816/site/newsweek/

[CARVER]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '.').. some interesting ideas such as microloans and opening up universities to the underpriveleged. Good article anyways -check it out...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10019816/site/newsweek/

[thuja]

I've been hearing that Netherlands is rethinking immigration policies- is that part of the plan? Its true that if we can increase relative wealth in third world countries, there would be less need for them to come to wealthier countries.

However, I am more pessimistic and believe that there will be an increasing and escalating class divide in the years to come, even with nice microloan policies... However, if these loans could be used to create self-sustaining economic systems within a bioregion, instead of businesses dependent on global trade; that would be one way to mitigate the effects of a post-peak recessionary period.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'I')'ve been hearing that Netherlands is rethinking immigration policies- is that part of the plan? Its true that if we can increase relative wealth in third world countries, there would be less need for them to come to wealthier countries.

However, I am more pessimistic and believe that there will be an increasing and escalating class divide in the years to come, even with nice microloan policies... However, if these loans could be used to create self-sustaining economic systems within a bioregion, instead of businesses dependent on global trade; that would be one way to mitigate the effects of a post-peak recessionary period.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'Y')es- corruption plays a significant part in syphoning off funds from these lending institutions and very little of it "trickles down". I wanted to point you all to an interesting article in Newsweek discussing the erosion of the middle class and the increasing disparity between rich and poor. Its not a classic liberal rant and it offers some interesting ideas such as microloans and opening up universities to the underpriveleged. Good article anyways -check it out...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10019816/site/newsweek/

[thuja]

Wow- blowing holes in the microfinance idea- Ok I give... the corruption is too endemic, the phony thiefs will outplay the few honest ones.

I have heard of some cases where it has worked, most notably in tsunami wracked regions where poor families lost it all; i.e. fishing towns in need of new boats, nets,etc. But on the whole, I am in agreement that loans big or small will not help significantly, especially if a country is pretty corrupt.

However, I do think you all emphasize corruption without mentioning the caveats that these loan agencies throw in when they offer the big bucks- deregulation and privatization- which generally means big foreign companies coming in and taking over industries and basically making the citizens vassal serfs of these conglomerates. I have to throw that in to the mix along with endemic corruption.

But really, if you were dogs at the table and the humans were throwing you scraps, wouldn't you do everything you could to get the most scraps? I think I'd turn in to one of those Russian nail exporters- screw the big banks and their loans- I'll get mine.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'H')owever, I do think you all emphasize corruption without mentioning the caveats that these loan agencies throw in when they offer the big bucks- deregulation and privatization- which generally means big foreign companies coming in and taking over industries and basically making the citizens vassal serfs of these conglomerates. I have to throw that in to the mix along with endemic corruption.

[thuja]

mmm- free enterprise? or corporate enslavement? guess its your choice how to see it...

[jaws]

Corporate enslavement is a scarecrow of marxists. Corporations are just actors on the market like everyone else, they don't enjoy special privileges. The real threat is government enslavement, as only the government has the power to exercise force against you. That's what socialism is, government enslavement.

Sweatshop jobs may not sound nice from your comfortable first-world position, but it's already more opportunities than these people ever enjoyed.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'C')orporations are just actors on the market like everyone else, they don't enjoy special privileges. The real threat is government enslavement, as only the government has the power to exercise force against you.