[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Permanently_Baffled', 'S')o with a forecasted $11.2 trillion of debt, and increasing by upto $ 1 trillion per year, I wonder how the US will fund all these up and coming resource wars......


Imagine the US having to borrow from the Chinese to go to war with them, now that would be a bizarre situation!!

[savethehumans]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hey never detected any bombers, but every Xmas they would produce maps showing Santa Claus' progress from the North Pole, which were broadcast on TV.

Bizarre?

[SHiFTY]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', 'T')here was a "Distant Early Warning" radar system in Northern Canada designed to detect Russian bomber attacks. It's electronic equipment was never updated and came to depend on vacuum tubes only available from soviet-bloc Czechslovakia.

They never detected any bombers, but every Xmas they would produce maps showing Santa Claus' progress from the North Pole, which were broadcast on TV.

Bizarre?

[untothislast]

I'd say having the world's most potent nuclear arsenal pointed at you, is pretty much a safe guarantee the US' creditors won't be hammering on the doors too hard.

[Leanan]

The cause of France's or our problems is not multiculturalism. Rather, it's the classic problem of not enough resources, too many people. Under those circumstances, yes, racial tensions will flare...but so will other tensions. Class, religion, etc. We won't all get along if only we are the same color. We'll just find other things to fight over.

Another article of interest:

Pain In the Middle

Most of the world is getting poorer, not richer. People are falling out of the middle class. The economic miracles promised by Reagan and Thatcher have turned out to be miracles only for the already wealthy.

The article argues that we should try to raise more people into the middle class - that it's necessary for stability's sake. I've no doubt that's true...but I doubt that it's possible. Once we're past peak oil - and I think we may already be past peak - it becomes very difficult to raise anyone up without pulling someone else down.

[untothislast]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', '
')Most of the world is getting poorer, not richer. People are falling out of the middle class. The economic miracles promised by Reagan and Thatcher have turned out to be miracles only for the already wealthy.

[Leanan]

I wonder if working people might actually benefit from peak oil - at least temporarily. No cheap energy could mean a major power shift. It might suddenly become cheaper to hire local workers, rather than outsource. There might even be labor shortages, as employers can no longer afford "energy slaves" and have to switch back to using human beings.

I was watching a show about the Black Death on the History Channel last week. It covered the aftermath of the plague, and some of its unexpected effects. The power of the church was reduced, since they hadn't been able to save people. So many people died that there was a severe labor shortage. Many peasants were able to afford land of their own - land whose original owners had died of the plague. And the remaining peasants were in a position to demand more money for their labor. The landowners tried to keep wages down, resulting in several violent peasant revolts.

Many wealthy people found themselves having to actually work their land themselves if they wanted to eat. They did not like this at all, and some of them turned to pillaging, looting, and killing their neighbors instead.

So there was civil unrest from both the poor and the wealthy. The poor because they wanted more pay for their work, the wealthy because they didn't want to work.

[gg3]

In terms of how this affects most of us here, individually:

I've been raising a bunch of noise recently about the fact that the first impacts of PO will not be food scarcities, but a migraine of a recession with high unemployment and increasing homelessness.

How much money do you spend each month for food? How much for housing? Which of these becomes more difficult if your income drops?

Bottom line is, we have to create a new economy, and since the Powers that Be aren't doing it, we have to do it from the bottom up.

This should be our #1 project.

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow much money do you spend each month for food? How much for housing? Which of these becomes more difficult if your income drops?

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SHiFTY', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', 'T')here was a "Distant Early Warning" radar system in Northern Canada designed to detect Russian bomber attacks. It's electronic equipment was never updated and came to depend on vacuum tubes only available from soviet-bloc Czechslovakia.

They never detected any bombers, but every Xmas they would produce maps showing Santa Claus' progress from the North Pole, which were broadcast on TV.

Bizarre?

[nocar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow much money do you spend each month for food? How much for housing? Which of these becomes more difficult if your income drops?

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nocar', 'I')f everyone has little money, housing costs will fall, although unequally depending on location.

[Leanan]

Good point. Housing is, ultimately, more elastic than food. Food cannot remain as cheap, relative to income, as it is now. Post-peak, the price is going to go up, because people have to have it, and it is very dependent on the price of oil.

There's a lot more room to cut back with housing. You can get a roommate, and cut your expenses in half. You can move to a cheaper location, or move in with family or friends. You can even, when push comes to shove, do without.

FWIW...the rightwing free market types who believe peak oil is imminent think suburban real estate prices will crash. They are recommending investing in city real estate instead. Along a public transportation line might also be good.

[thuja]

There is two aspects to location. To me, more importantly than which city is which part of the city are you living in? In the beginning as a recessionary period worsens, the poor parts of town will be the worst to live in in any city. There will be more crime, more burglaries, car thefts, gas syphoning, mugging, etc. as the poor get desperate to survive. These areas will be worst than the suburbs in the beginning. Then the places that require long commutes where people have humongous mortgages will decline. The newly emergent middle class young folks with an ARM and a split level 40 miles from work will end up losing their homes as the bubble pops and energy prices and interest rates soar.

After these factors, its important to examine location within your country. In the US, rust belt auto/plane industry based cities will decline (Think Detroit). Vacation cities that use a lot of energy such as Las Vegas will decline rapidly. This one's going to go down like a baloon with a pin in it. Cities with extreme temperatures which require a great deal of heating and cooling will suffer (Minneapolis in the north, Phoenix in the south).

So its where you live in the country and where you live in the city.

[nocar]

In Europe the locations with access to rail transport - light rail or regular trains of fast trains will be better off than other places - everything else being equal. Also locations where one can get employment or perhaps run one's own business selling stuff will be better off.

I do not think people will start shooting each other in Europe. In the French current uprisings, mostly cars seem to be attacked - I have not heard much about of shooting and looting, which everyone seem to fear in the States.

nocar

[The_Toecutter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')nce we're past peak oil - and I think we may already be past peak - it becomes very difficult to raise anyone up without pulling someone else down.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'I')n terms of how this affects most of us here, individually:

I've been raising a bunch of noise recently about the fact that the first impacts of PO will not be food scarcities, but a migraine of a recession with high unemployment and increasing homelessness.

How much money do you spend each month for food? How much for housing? Which of these becomes more difficult if your income drops?

Bottom line is, we have to create a new economy, and since the Powers that Be aren't doing it, we have to do it from the bottom up.

This should be our #1 project.

[peaker_2005]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'G')ood point. Housing is, ultimately, more elastic than food. Food cannot remain as cheap, relative to income, as it is now. Post-peak, the price is going to go up, because people have to have it, and it is very dependent on the price of oil.

There's a lot more room to cut back with housing. You can get a roommate, and cut your expenses in half. You can move to a cheaper location, or move in with family or friends. You can even, when push comes to shove, do without.

FWIW...the rightwing free market types who believe peak oil is imminent think suburban real estate prices will crash. They are recommending investing in city real estate instead. Along a public transportation line might also be good.