[PenultimateManStanding]

I was listening to PBS radio this weekend and they had a segment about Mexican American soldiers from WWII. An oral history of a pilot named Hank Cervantes was very good. He was working in the fields picking crops in California when that war broke out. He wanted to be a pilot, so he went to the air force recruiting office. The recruiting officer looked at him and said, 'Kid, we don't take Philippinos, Spics, or Niggers. Go down the hall to the navy office - they're taking you guys for the mess crews.' Poor Hank was devastated. Eventually he got called into the army and took a test for pilot aptitude and passed. He became a pilot. He retired as a lieutenant-colonel. This of course is a part of the past that Americans disavow. It has got me thinking, though, about past attitudes and how they've changed. Remember a movie with Kevin Costner: Dances With Wolves? This movie, more than any other, expresses the changing. Do you really think that the romanticization of American Indians and sadness about their plight is motivated by fine ethical feelings and deep empathy for them? I don't. When I was a kid, in cowboys and indian flicks, the indians were always the bad guys. Now we have popular movies in which the roles are reversed. The very first movie, that I know of, to explore this was a John Wayne movie directed by John Houston called The Searchers. There was great tension and ambiguity about racist attitudes towards indians. Then in the late 60's (?) a Dustin Hoffman movie called Little Big Man took a more satirical look at it. (The portrayal of Custer was brilliant). So what does motivate this change? The loss of the frontier. And with it, the loss of 'Us and Them' and moral clarity. Sure the old clarity was bigoted, but it gave a strong sense of national identity. All that is gone. Movies like Dances With Wolves use indians as an Archtype to represent the golden past. Indians are a symbol of an exuberant time of potential and growth. Such feelings are like nectar from an age that will never return.

[SinisterBlueCat]

reminds me of the book 1984 where the past is perpetually update to reflect the current mood of the party.

kinda scary, and probably frustrating for the group who's past is being revised

[PrairieMule]

Interesting topic, Mario Van Peebles made a great flick back in 1993 called Posse that addressed racism in the west. Even the name Cowboy has it's roots in racism. A black ranch hand was refered as a Cow-Boy and White ranch hand was refered to as a Cattleman. We have come a long way since then.

FYI-I have a tie in to Dances with Wolves. My maternal Grandfather(half Sioux) has a 2nd cousin named Robert "Holy Bear" Shonehut who won a oscar in 1991 in Cinamatography for Dances with wolves, which had Kevin Costner, who was in JFK with KEVIN BACON.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SinisterBlueCat', 'r')eminds me of the book 1984 where the past is perpetually update to reflect the current mood of the party.

kinda scary, and probably frustrating for the group who's past is being revised

[SinisterBlueCat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')Fortunately, we don't have a Ministry Of Truth.

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'A')nd with it, the loss of 'Us and Them' and moral clarity. Sure the old clarity was bigoted, but it gave a strong sense of national identity. All that is gone.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SinisterBlueCat', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')Fortunately, we don't have a Ministry Of Truth.

[SinisterBlueCat]

it gives a sense of what who's attitudes were...the people of 1868 who were actually fighting the Indians or the people of 1950 who were making and watching the movies?

So, which is the closest or the truest approximation...today where the indian is the good guy, or in the films of the past when the indian was evil incarnate? Either way, it is probably historical revisionism, yes?[/quote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'A')nd as I said, I think it's connected to the feeling of those days which were closer to the real golden age of America when expansion over the continent was the big collective project.

[PrairieMule]

Excuse me when you state "Our recent inruption of racist posters reflects a nostalgia, to my thinking" I certainly hope you are referring to me. I thought this was a discusson about racism of days past in which I brought up a well made movie that specifically addressed the origin of the word cowboy and how much the meaning of name has changed. Or were you inferring I am a racist? If so please back up you words and tell me what is it that makes me a racist. I may not agree with you politically but I try to value the opinons of others and try to get along with all.

[SinisterBlueCat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '
')Excuse me when you state "Our recent inruption of racist posters reflects a nostalgia, to my thinking" I certainly hope you are referring to me.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SinisterBlueCat', '
')it gives a sense of what who's attitudes were...the people of 1868 who were actually fighting the Indians or the people of 1950 who were making and watching the movies?

[PrairieMule]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SinisterBlueCat', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '
')Excuse me when you state "Our recent inruption of racist posters reflects a nostalgia, to my thinking" I certainly hope you are referring to me.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '
')Excuse me when you state "Our recent inruption of racist posters reflects a nostalgia, to my thinking" I certainly hope you are referring to me. I thought this was a discusson about racism of days past in which I brought up a well made movie that specifically addressed the origin of the word cowboy and how much the meaning of name has changed.

[SinisterBlueCat]

That is a lovely painting, but I cannot shake the feeling that it is a painting of a person of european decent wearing native clothing. At least none of the Ho-chunk indians that live near me look anything like that!


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')That isn't the only way to view movies.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Man, I loved Jim Morrison. Not for any wisdom, but for his poetic sense. He was a master of words. But it's got nothing to do with movies, though, just his fanciful interpretation.

[SinisterBlueCat]

but it does have to do with movies and specifically with this thread. You said people equate old movies with a clear sense of identity. I say the people portrayed in those old movies inherently had a clear sense of identity.

People spend so much time watching other people in movies having an identity that they have no time to be people with an identity....that is why I said we live vicariously though movies. Probably the only reason, as it certainly not for the hostorical facts.

By the way, Jim was very wise and unbelieveably intelligent...on the level of chaucer, Nietschze. Sad for the world to have lost him so soon.

[PrairieMule]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '
')Excuse me when you state "Our recent inruption of racist posters reflects a nostalgia, to my thinking" I certainly hope you are referring to me. I thought this was a discusson about racism of days past in which I brought up a well made movie that specifically addressed the origin of the word cowboy and how much the meaning of name has changed.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', ' ')
FATHER:Jim....

JIM: Yes Father?

FATHER: Go back to bed...

[SinisterBlueCat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '
')
PMS, sorry I flew off the handle. I was refering to "Our recent inruption of racist posters reflects a nostalgia, to my thinking", I misunderstood and kneejerked on SB Cat. I acted more like a Ass than Mule. Hey, someone mentioned Jim Morrison. Here is my favorite jim Morrison Joke, It's a newer verson of The Doors The end:

JIM MORRISON: The killer awoke before dawn, he put his boots on
He took a face from the ancient gallery
And he walked on down the hall
He went into the room where his sister lived, and...then he
Paid a visit to his brother, and then he
He walked on down the hall, and
And he came to a door...and he looked inside
Father, yes son, I want to kill you
Mother...I want to...(CENSORED FOR BAD TASTE) you

FATHER:Jim....

JIM: Yes Father?

FATHER: Go back to bed...

[PrairieMule]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SinisterBlueCat', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '
')
PMS, sorry I flew off the handle. I was refering to "Our recent inruption of racist posters reflects a nostalgia, to my thinking", I misunderstood and kneejerked on SB Cat. I acted more like a Ass than Mule. Hey, someone mentioned Jim Morrison. Here is my favorite jim Morrison Joke, It's a newer verson of The Doors The end:

JIM MORRISON: The killer awoke before dawn, he put his boots on
He took a face from the ancient gallery
And he walked on down the hall
He went into the room where his sister lived, and...then he
Paid a visit to his brother, and then he
He walked on down the hall, and
And he came to a door...and he looked inside
Father, yes son, I want to kill you
Mother...I want to...(CENSORED FOR BAD TASTE) you

FATHER:Jim....

JIM: Yes Father?

FATHER: Go back to bed...