[Guest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '
')
Decide on which perspective you believe in deeply and absolutely, and that will guide you.

.

[Josephus]

I know I might get flamed for this, and I know this site depends on speculation as much as facts and figures, but.....

In my opinion (which I understand doesn't actually count for much) discussing what is or isn't moral after peak is like discussing the afterlife. Lots of personal opinion and conjectures, quotes from law books and sacred tomes, but in all actuality we won't know until we get there. Sad fact is even die-hard pacifists may well be put in kill or be killed situations and may choose the former as opposed to adhering to their moral code of the latter. It's deeply ingrained in humans to survive no matter what. Or gun-nut survivalists might be left looking foolish as society peacefully segues into a non-petroleum based economy. It's all a crap-shoot right now.

But on another note, those who are completely convinced it will be a gradual and peaceful transition might want to take into consideration how big of a project the overhaul of the world infastructure might be. I'd like to paraphrase a Kennedy speech to sum it up: We won't do these things because they are easy, but because they are hard.

[nigel]

Josephus - your points are well made and are as worthwhile as anyone else's.

What I am trying to get accross to the survivalists is that they are not the arbiters of morality nor of evolution. Morality is not ruled by a subjective test. The individual is not the arbiter of right and wrong in isolation. After one's decision is made, society and one's own conscience adjudicates on its merits.

A tin of beans and a gun does not make one into God, nor does it make or prove one is racially superior with a consequent Darwinian right (whatever that is) to survive over and above another. The whole notion would be laughable if it were not so obnoxious.

Just because a person is not a ME ME ME first supremacist, nor a person willing to murder the starving, does not necessarliy make them a pacifist.

Discussing morality and questioning others views - that's how we learn isn't it?

[smiley]

Good post Josephius,

As for me. Maybe I'm wrong maybe this erupts in violence. Maybe I even get killed. So what?

A good friend got killed when his refrigerator caught fire. Another died when a trailer lost a seacontainer on the highway. I nearly died in a freak bus accident. Being shot by a looter is as good or bad a faith as another. At least then I die while having some faith in humanity.

I get the perception that some here have a romantic fantasy about sitting in a log cabin, clutching a gun and waiting for the intruders. I rather spend a life-sentence in jail. Not being able to trust the people around you, the society and the humanity, sounds to me like a faith far worse than death.

In history many bad things have happened but I refuse to believe that the human nature is that bad. I refuse to believe that my fellow citizens will turn on me the moment things go awry. And if I'm wrong in that, well, then you might as well shoot me first because I have no intention of living in such a society.

[cthulhu]

The basic building block of any society is the family. If you have respect for the institution of the family, yours and others, you're in good shape in my book. However we have seen the erosion of such faith in the merits of the family.

One has only to look at something like William Reich's the Psychology of Fascism, where the family is seen as the basis for fascism as juxtaposed with the new economic of socialist communism where the care and welfare of the citizen is in the hands of the state thus absolving the individual from family obligations and making them more "free" thereby. Child care, rest homes, kindy, single parent support, all help to break up the family with its fascist tendencies and allow the individual to be freely concerned with their own psychological welfare, rather than nuturing raising, caring for those closest to you. Where there are no longer families and societies but producers, consumers and states we see something abhorrant to my mind.

Monastries and nunneries in all societies serve a useful purpose as surrogate families and indeed once the role of the Catholic church in the West was as a bulwarlk of family virtues, as a family in Christ (however dysfunctional). But even religion became somewhat of a more personal matter.

So, morality? Nay, family!!

[Josephus]

I'm glad to see we're on the same page on this one. The image of the lone survivalist is quite romanticized. And while it may be the case for some, most of us will continue to live in small communities and help our neighbors with keeping civilization intact. I'd like to think so anyway, try getting through a northern winter without any help cutting wood, hauling water, hunting, gathering etc. and see how long you really want to go it alone.

[arocoun]

Some people say that when peak oil or some other disaster hits, kindness and justice will be luxuries that we won't be able to afford. Some people say that when such a disaster strikes, people will naturally get together and help each other through rough times. I say that niether position is entirely true.

The vast majority of history and psychological study show us that, in fact, it isn't too common for people to change too drastically, even in times of poverty or disaster. People who are normally selfish assholes will be the ones who shoot anyone who comes within 300 yards of their property; kill people for stealing a slice of bread; or participate in mugging and raiding. People who are normally selfless and kind will be the ones participating in mutual aid and defending each other. And, once food gets really scarce, the selfish people will be hoarding and killing, while the selfless people will be sharing what little is left.

Generally, when people make assumptions as to what people will be doing post-disaster, they are either making the assumption based on what they've seen of the people around them, or they're actually projecting their own personality into humanity in general.

This is actually some very important stuff to remember. Part of your preparations for peak oil should be deciding who, if anyone, you are going to be around. I suggest avoiding people who tend to care only about themselves.

[alpha480v]

You don't even need a disaster to see how people act when stressed.Take Christmas for example.Every year we see on the news about how someone is trampled at Wallmart bacause a hard to get toy is on sale.If people will fight,trample,and push each other over a stupid toy or a laptop computer,imagine what will happen when food gets scarce.There will be kind people,and there will be the assholes.Not enough of the former,too many of the latter.

[Ludi]

People are mostly pretty nice in my neck of the woods; I rarely if ever run into jerks in real life, just on the internet. People are pretty friendly, and most people know their neighbors. I think people will help each other more around here in the future, not less.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'P')eople are mostly pretty nice in my neck of the woods; I rarely if ever run into jerks in real life, just on the internet. People are pretty friendly, and most people know their neighbors. I think people will help each other more around here in the future, not less.

[Ludi]

Anyone whose family hasn't been here since the 19th century is a "newcomer."

But, I suppose you mean people migrating out from the city. I'm not really sure why they'd do that, since there isn't anything out here.

[ashurbanipal]

I think that people who are expecting things to get bad will have a lot better grip on themselves in general than people who will get the consequences of peak rammed down their throats.

I can think of no time when honor and ethics will be more important than when things really get bad. Especially because it's going to be in such short supply. I expect that in some locations, people will go absolutely nuts, while in others, they'll maintain calm even in the face of starvation.

[PrairieMule]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'A')nyone whose family hasn't been here since the 19th century is a "newcomer."

But, I suppose you mean people migrating out from the city. I'm not really sure why they'd do that, since there isn't anything out here.

[SinisterBlueCat]

Ludi and PrairieMule, I am wondering if what you are discussing is more of a southern thing as opposed to just a rural thing. Here in Wi at least, it is not really like that. People kind of flow around, come and go and there really is not as much of that raised eyebrow thing, even out in the sticks. So many people go up north every fall for hunting and summer for fishing and winter for snow mobiling that I think the locals are just used to lots of new faces. Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing yet...

[PrairieMule]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SinisterBlueCat', 'L')udi and PrairieMule, I am wondering if what you are discussing is more of a southern thing as opposed to just a rural thing. Here in Wi at least, it is not really like that. People kind of flow around, come and go and there really is not as much of that raised eyebrow thing, even out in the sticks. So many people go up north every fall for hunting and summer for fishing and winter for snow mobiling that I think the locals are just used to lots of new faces. Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing yet...

[Eli]

I think overall this post is right on people are not going to all change into raving madmen over night.

This also why I do not think suburbia is going to have soccer moms in them running around killing people.

But places that already have problems with violence are going to get much worse. The inner city for one, where there is already a predatory class that preys upon others those guys are going to get much worse and brazen. But the good will be subject to more and more punishment at the hands of evil men.


But even in the sticks you have your cranksters who will slit your throat for some uedefed.

[SinisterBlueCat]

wisconsin is a good place to live, but like everywhere else it has its problems. Vast amounts of the land up north is being sold off by the huge paper mills that used to own it and is ending up in the hands of land developers...so the outdoor opportunities are diminishing daily here. It is an expensive state to live in, as taxes on everything from gas to real estate is high.

As for Gander Mtn being the best export, No, that would have to be our cheese and sausage...we have some darn good breweries around these parts too. All and all, in light of what is liely coming down on all of us, I am glad I am here instead of somewhere else...now, if I were only supperrich!

I do not think tho that people everywhere are going to go stark raving mad and starting klling anyone and everyone for a bite to eat. Post Civil War south so lots of famine and hunger, and they all starved together...a different time, maybe.

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'B')ut even in the sticks you have your cranksteres who will slit your throat for some uedefed.

[PrairieMule]

SBC,

Beer, cheese and sausage? When I said Gander Mt, I figured you would say Packers,Badgers, or Brewers. I once dated a girl from Dodgeville, she led me to believe those 3 teams are like the sacred idols of Wisconsin.

On the subject of civilized suburbians. I remember Jan 30,1999 mobs at Albertsons picking shelves clean, no riots but still-very disturbing. The next day I went to Wal-mart to pick up ammo for my rifle to go to the range. They were completely sold out of 9mm ammo. The bare shelves sure made a impression on me.

[SinisterBlueCat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', 'S')BC,

Beer, cheese and sausage? When I said Gander Mt, I figured you would say Packers,Badgers, or Brewers. I once dated a girl from Dodgeville, she led me to believe those 3 teams are like the sacred idols of Wisconsin.

On the subject of civilized suburbians. I remember Jan 30,1999 mobs at Albertsons picking shelves clean, no riots but still-very disturbing. The next day I went to Wal-mart to pick up ammo for my rifle to go to the range. They were completely sold out of 9mm ammo. The bare shelves sure made a impression on me.