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THE F.William Engdahl Thread (merged)

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby MrBill » Wed 09 Nov 2005, 14:47:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Euric', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Petrodollar', 'M')r Bill,

Anyhow, I'm probably wasting my time given your intrinsic euro-skeptism, desire for "status quo" despite the evidence of a techtonic shift towards the euro, a disdain for reading the history of petrorecycling using the typical defense mechanism of "conspiracy theory", along with a subsequent failure to comprehend how this phenomenon continues to impart major macroecononic effects on the global economy.

So, I will leave you to ponder these five quotes... (My guess is that you fall into the camp of the 2nd quote, but I think the 1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th quotes are likely to prevail by 2010)


No, No No, you are NOT wasting your time. I completely enjoyed reading your response. We can not let the likes of the Mr. Bills of the world to keep spreading their fantasies in the hope, if they spread them far and wide, they will be believed.

Mr. Bill must have much to lose when the petrodollar collapses, or he wouldn't be fighting so hard to keep the truth quiet.



I guarantee you that I have more euro assets in my account than most of you. I think it is those that read one book and think they have more information than someone who has been trading for 20-years that are seriously deluded. Whatever, I have assets in many currencies and asset classes to spread my interest rate & currency risk. WTSHTF, as you all like to say, it's not going to be me that is 'screwed'. Have a nice life :!:

:)
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby Zentric » Wed 09 Nov 2005, 16:43:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '[')The value of the dollar is a matrix relative to other countries' matrices.


Surely you don't see it this way, but it is the ultimate in hubris that -in an increasingly chaotic and interconnected global system- you can look upon relative currency strengths in terms of simple matrix entries. You cannot reduce the inherent complexity and uncertainty of our world down to a few highly-solvable linear equations.

Want an example? Look what happened with the Nobel Laureates who managed Long Term Capital Management to death. It is foreseeable that know-it-alls in high places will soon be writing checks that the rest of the world will be unable to cash. So to speak.
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby DantesPeak » Wed 09 Nov 2005, 18:17:30

Thanks for the clarification Mr. Bill. :) It seems you are more skeptical about the dollar regime than I first thought. :o

At present, there is no strong inclination in Congress to raise taxes further. Yes, in 2005, taxes were subtly increased - especially for corporations. Primarily this was done by letting special provisions expire at the end of 2004. However individual taxes were also increased faster than the rate of inflation - but there were not too many complaints because they generally affected the top third of all persons.

So we are back to interest rates supporting the US dollar. All I can say to sum up - it's going to be very hard, if not impossible, to reduce interest rates and not have the dollar fall.
Last edited by DantesPeak on Wed 09 Nov 2005, 19:58:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby MonteQuest » Wed 09 Nov 2005, 19:00:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')Yesterday it was someone talking about 'the carry trade' as being one of the reasons the Fed could not raise interest rates too quickly. Well, duh, borrowing low and lending high while simulataneously taking on a) interest rate gap risk, b) counterpart risk, or c) FX risk on your assets & liabilities is not a conspiracy, it underpins the foundations of banking. Banking is built of the concept of intermediation of risk.

So when some peaker proudly displays his lack of knowlege in these forums he may impress his buddies, but for me it is quite irritating. Why? Because peak oil the geological fact is a serious issue and the issue is being highjacked by those raging against the machine. Against capital markets which they simply do not understand. They do not even understand simple finance and economics.


I think this is directed at me. Where did I ever say it was a conspiracy?

One of the evils of the fiat system is not knowing when to rein in rate hikes. The FED doesn't won't to be too restrictive, while curbing inflationary tendencies. With the Carry trade as large as it was, raising rates too fast could cause a stampede. Yet the inflation is not being curbed. Look for 50 basis point hikes coming up.

Cross your fingers that something doesn't break.

Hi-jacked? How about looking at the Big Picture?

If you can't see that peak oil is a symptom of a greater disease, you become part of the problem.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby cube » Thu 10 Nov 2005, 00:15:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '.')...
Central bankers were net sellers of US treasuries last week, but the dollar remains well bid against the euro and the yen.
...
*confused* How can there be such a thing as "net sellers"? For every seller there must be a buyer or the product cannot change ownership. Did you mean central banks sold more US treasuries then they bought therefore the US is buying back it's own debt. Kinda like how a junkie pays off his current credit card debt by getting a new credit card. What's the economic lingo for this, "monetization"???

Is it just me, or is there a foul stench of inflation in the air? 8)
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby MrBill » Thu 10 Nov 2005, 05:06:24

RE Central bank net sellers. Yes, central banks sold US treasuries last month. They were bought by private & institutional investors. If you want I can give you a breakdown, but as I have to look for the exact redemptions, what are you going to do for me? :)

RE Fed funds. Yes, they have indicated they will continue to raise rates uninterupted until they remove the stimulus. Many now think that will be at least 3 more rises to 4.75% with no pause and then they will reassess. If inflation is still >3% then I would expect them to continue. The ECB and BOE are also becoming noticably more hawkish. They are getting back to their original mandate. Inflation fighters. The politicans are howling because this means slower or no growth.

RE Peak Oil. The most serious, but not the only, problem facing us at this moment. As per IEA comments two days ago they see less than 25-years supply at current levels of consumption. Consumption is forecast to rise. Japan uses two thirds the energy per GDP as the G7 average. China uses 4X and wants to double their GDP in 10-years while ONLY increasing energy consumption by 2X. Yes, I think we have a real problem here. No easy solutions either.

RE USA. The world's largest and richest country and a country devoid of domestic leadership and showing no leadership in the world. Making enemies all over the world and losing the few friends & allies it once had. Need I say more?

Chance of a serious US lead recession in 2006 due to high energy prices, higher inflation, higher interest rates, slowing economy and falling house prices? Mixed at this point. Maybe 25% at the moment? Growth is still forecast to be 3.3% with inflation at 3.1%. But, these forecasts may be lowered as time goes by. I see the dangers. As of yet I cannot see the outcome?
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby Euric » Thu 10 Nov 2005, 13:43:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')
RE USA. The world's largest and richest country and a country devoid of domestic leadership and showing no leadership in the world. Making enemies all over the world and losing the few friends & allies it once had. Need I say more?


How do you define largest? Are you referring to land area in square kilometres? If so, there are some countries that have more square kilometres of area then the US.

As for richest, I would disagree. To me wealth is a measurement of your surpluses, not your deficits. If you own on something you bought with credit and haven't paid the bill yet, how can you claim it to be yours? If you buy a home, it isn't really yours until the last cent is paid. Between the two times it is only partially yours. The other silent owner is the bank, or in the case of the US, Fannie Mae or Freddy Mac.

Americans are just lucky the creditors haven't yet come knocking on the door claiming what you think is yours is really theirs.
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby bobcousins » Thu 10 Nov 2005, 14:07:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Euric', 'H')ow do you define largest? Are you referring to land area in square kilometres? If so, there are some countries that have more square kilometres of area then the US.

When someone has only nitpicking to offer you know they've lost the argument :roll:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')mericans are just lucky the creditors haven't yet come knocking on the door claiming what you think is yours is really theirs.

But the Peak Oil Cultist won't let it lie! He stamps his little foot and cries "It is true, tis, tis, tis!" :razz:

Seriously guys, MrBill "gets" how the economics works. Take off your doom tinted spectacles and give him some credit for bringing us an assessment grounded in reality.

I think there is an interesting discussion to be had about what really would cause the system collapse, but I doubt such a discussion would be allowed if "PO" is not the reason.
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby Zentric » Thu 10 Nov 2005, 14:57:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Euric', 'T')o me wealth is a measurement of your surpluses, not your deficits. If you own on something you bought with credit and haven't paid the bill yet, how can you claim it to be yours? If you buy a home, it isn't really yours until the last cent is paid. Between the two times it is only partially yours. The other silent owner is the bank, or in the case of the US, Fannie Mae or Freddy Mac.

Americans are just lucky the creditors haven't yet come knocking on the door claiming what you think is yours is really theirs.


Very good points, Euric. I only wonder who the ultimate creditors will be for the middle-class home owners with big mortgages, who are about to lose their jobs in the coming economic downturn. Or, otherwise, hold variable interest rate mortgages. Same difference.

If wide classes of home mortgages and home equity loans become generally poor-performing, who, generally-speaking, will be the ones most interested in displacing the poor families that live in those former McMansions of glory so that these same properties can be quickly sold and/or re-occupied to make the ultimate creditors at least partially whole again?

Banks? Well, if a bank's customers have money on deposit, and this money has in turn been diverted into a mortgage loan, then maybe this makes the bank and its customers the ultimate creditors?

The Federal Government? I believe FDIC substantially insures the banks and their customers. However, what if the federal government reneges on this commitment - or simply fires up the printing presses to meet its obligations?

Freddie and Fannie? My impression is that these corporations do not hold much wealth themselves, and will merely pass any debt obligations on to third parties.

The Asian mortgage backed security holders? Countries like China, Japan and Korea apparently hold a trillion dollars of American mortgage debt, or otherwise, they own a trillion dollars of federal debt, which is in some way linked to possibly millions of Americans' home mortgages.

I think that learning who is bound to be the ultimate creditor might dictate how the financial collapse (or, ahem, readjustment) is likely to go down.

Cousins: I think you're boring.
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby threadbear » Thu 10 Nov 2005, 16:27:45

Propping the dollar hegemon requires massive amounts of deficit spending for the military. This gives the impression of American control, but it's a form of financial cannibalism. Is this what paper tiger means?

As long as appearances can be maintained the dumb money will continue to support the dollar, as will foreign govts who may have ulterior motives.This is one of the reasons the govt of the US refuses to pull out of Iraq at the present time. Pulling out will shatter the confidence in the ability of the US to back their dollar with guns and then the game's over. If they don't bomb Iran, and it proceeds to scrap yankee bucks, a similar loss in confidence in the dollar will ensue.

When the US pulls out of Iraq, it might actually trigger a dollar and treasury bill dump. Interest rates will have to double or triple to stimulate any interest. It will look a lot like Argentina did a few years ago, just not as good.

Bob Cousins, I'd read your posts if they were shorter.
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby jaws » Thu 10 Nov 2005, 21:41:30

What do you expect? That you will wake up one day and your neighbor will be carrying his money in a wheelbarrow? These things don't happen suddenly and without warning. Tension builds up. Bad news comes out. People come out saying the bad news is overblown. Markets move down, then move up, then move down again.

The bad news is everywhere these days, but the tension isn't quite there yet. People are still confident in the dollar. Maybe it'll take some more bankruptcies to wake them up. When that happens, lots of people will come out saying there's nothing to worry about and the value of the dollar is safe. And gradually the dollar will lose value, more and more, and the loss of value will accelerate. Then people will start to be afraid and get out even faster, and it will accelerate some more. This will take at least months, even years, to play out.
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby lakeweb » Thu 10 Nov 2005, 23:03:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Euric', '
')Americans are just lucky the creditors haven't yet come knocking on the door claiming what you think is yours is really theirs.


This is a perfect example of the misunderstanding of debt. Debt is a 'promise to pay'. So, how do we 'pay'? Do 50 million Americans move out of their homes, (to where?) and 50 million Chinese nationals board ships to move into those homes?

Think about it...

Best, Dan.
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby threadbear » Fri 11 Nov 2005, 00:19:12

forgiveness of debt, by the Chinese, in exchange for warm bodies. Might work
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby Euric » Fri 11 Nov 2005, 22:28:07

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/ ... 08A6E9.htm

An interesting twist on the Iranian Oil Bourse. A british economist hoping the Iranians would give the buyers a choice of currencies. Being British and possibly anti-euro, she must be hoping the buyers would continue to choose the dollar.
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby hull3551 » Sat 12 Nov 2005, 15:03:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '.')..lots of people will come out saying there's nothing to worry about and the value of the dollar is safe. And gradually the dollar will lose value, more and more, and the loss of value will accelerate. Then people will start to be afraid and get out even faster, and it will accelerate some more. This will take at least months, even years, to play out.


I think the media is already glossing over the issues at hand. Especially considering they – many mentioned in threads on this forum from the US folly in Iraq, PO, the impending dollar collapse – are generally unknown to your average ignoramus on the street. The media has been grossly negligent in presenting anything that will promote negativity, as it is not in their best interest. Any thought on what’s really happening needs to be derived from fringe sources. I think it is closer than is widely thought, which will create a real shock for most people.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Euric', 'h')ttp://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C1C0C9B3-DDA9-42E2-AE9C-B7CDBA08A6E9.htm

An interesting twist on the Iranian Oil Bourse. A british economist hoping the Iranians would give the buyers a choice of currencies. Being British and possibly anti-euro, she must be hoping the buyers would continue to choose the dollar.


I love this part:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')George Perkovich, of the Washington based Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, has argued that Iran's decision to consider invoicing oil sales in euros is "part of a very intelligent strategy to go on the offense in every way possible and mobilise other actors against the US."


Way to turn this as a ploy against the US. Yes, in part the US has been a big part of the instability in the ME and I can see Iran’s desire to retaliate against the US without confronting the military. But in a broader sense, it would make more sense from many perspectives for Iran to establish the IOB as euro based, or multiple currencies.

The US will definitely twist this act of Iran to their benefit, as a successful petroeuro program would cause incredible problems for the US Dollar, including losing its prominence as sole world reserve and the loss of its global military dominance. My logic is that roughly a third of the US budget is military spending. The US cannot cut any more programs with much effectiveness – they’re already stripped bare: education, infrastructure, national parks/monuments, etc. The two remaining items are SS/Medicare and military.

The US will need to either attack Iran prior to March 2006 (or somehow stall the IOB), or else risk inflation/hyperinflation and subsequent collapse of its (and the world’s) economy.
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby lakeweb » Sat 12 Nov 2005, 15:49:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hull3551', 'T')he US will need to either attack Iran prior to March 2006 (or somehow stall the IOB), or else risk inflation/hyperinflation and subsequent collapse of its (and the world’s) economy.


I have been of the opinion that we would not go to war with Iran because of supply disruptions through the gulf. It would not be the cakewalk that Iraq was. Iran is said to have some 150 sunburns in their arsenal. What U.S. Navel vessels that are in the gulf are likely sitting ducks.

I haven't looked much deeper into this. It may be that the military option looks like a net gain in that the last opposition to western influence in the ME would be removed.

It would be quite a shock to world economies. Especially if Iran can keep supply disrupted for any length of time.

If you know of a good source that covers the strategic reserves of nations. especially concerning their ability to hold out, could some one post it?

Thanks and Best, Dan.
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby Euric » Sun 13 Nov 2005, 14:28:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', '
') I don't think it takes einstienian prowess to realize that people are fed up with the status quo and that it won't take much to send American society over the edge.


Is there really a status quo in the US or is there actually a slow movement in the direction of a two class society, where you are either rich or poor?
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Re: Stable dollar rests on sand - F.William Engdahl

Postby MrBill » Mon 14 Nov 2005, 12:10:18

So, if the gains were illusionary and the apparent wealth of the real economy is a mirage, why does it matter if people then lose imagined wealth that never accrued to them in the first place? Is it better to live like a king for a day than to have never tasted affluence? If we are all regressing to the mean in some sort of pre-industrial revolution agrarian based economy then at least we used the past 200 years to do some interesting things, make some discoveries, do some research, print some books and amass knowlege that without the hydrocarbon revolution would not have been imaginable much less possible. Does society not gain from this accumulation of knowlege no matter what follows like our civilzation was built on the ancient ones that came before us? How can you weep for the end when you too have enjoyed the ride? According to your impecible logic had we never expanded beyond our means many of those alive today would not be. Therefore, we are just paying an overdue debt. How could it have ended otherwise?
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