[actionreplay]

This stuff in France is not new. Look up the film "La Haine", almost 10 years old. The poor suburbs around Paris have been crapholes for years. this is the latest installment.

The main problem these people face is plain old racism. I lived in France for 2 years. It used to make me angry that I, white northen european, was always treated with courtesy, whereas my French, relatively dark-skinned friend (her mum was Algerian) got endless crap from people.

Everything from the ticket inspector on the subway talking 5 times as long to inspect her ticket, to people not serving her in shops, etc. This sort of thing is the norm there.

17% of French schoolkids agreed with the statement "I am racist and proud of it" in a SOFRES (polling company) poll back in 1995.

They were happy for the immigrants to take the crappy jobs no-one else wanted. But they tell the immigrants' kids on the one hand that they need to integrate and then make that impossible. No wonder these people are pissed off.

I agree that the economic situation there doesn't help matters. But this crap has been going on for years.

[hull3551]

Many good point, and an interesting thread.

But I’m surprised at the number of free-market proponents on this thread. Isn’t this what created the problem in the first place – primarily PO? Global exploitation of resources, including petroleum, and labor Suburban Sprawl. Poverty – both in the US and globally. Corporate unaccountability. Evolution of a nation-state to a market-state. Etc.

From my perspective, the current US market system sucks. Virtually everyone I know that works in the corporate sector is working sixty-plus hour work weeks. There is always a fear that they must be included in the next round of layoffs, and nothing is certain. So in my jaded opinion, yes, you can get ahead in change classes through either luck, ass kissing, or back stabbing. Work hard and the only thing you’ll get is taken advantage of. Believe me, I’ve worked on both sides of the equation –as middle management and as a worker bee – and that’s the way it is. Talk to any Junior out their and they’ll swear you can get ahead by working hard. I listen and chuckle to myself. God, I wish I was 24 again - I knew everything then.

Regarding the poor: People I’ve come in contact with (by working or volunteering with them) on a regular basis in the lower stratum of society are screwed. Most do not have the basic knowledge that those in the middle/upper class have. They do not have decent jobs or education. They do not know how to open a checking account (bills are paid with money orders). Those that own homes are in the inner-city neighborhoods that see little price appreciation versus the suburbs, exburbs, or trendy city neighborhoods – hence they have access to little capital for start-ups in the form of home equity. Their idea of good credit (if they have it at all) is a charge-off or two in the past few years; consequently, they have little access to business or SBA loans. The poor are screwed, and unfortunately they are the ones having large numbers of children.

Same thing can be said for immigrants: they bulk of new poverty in the US (I just read this somewhere) is from new US citizens – either legal or illegal. However, they busted their butts to get to the US in search of a better life for their future generations. Generational poverty in the US will be with us for perpetuity under the current world views (ie, they’re just lazy). I think we need to get used to a permanent underclass in the US – as I see no solution in my lifetime.

I will not be surprised if the government sees some opposition in the future, and even less surprised if it was in the form of violence. The government does not represent the people anymore, as the poor get poorer and greater in number, and the rich become richer, fewer and more concentrated.

Fortunately, a concentrated media controls most of the news in the US. Yes, there are those of us (many who are on this board) who need to look further than FOX, CNN, ABC, et al., but the vast majority of citizens are dumbed down and that’s where the crony capitalists want them. Shop at Walmart and wonder why the local factory close. Pass up the local produce stand on the way to the Kroger or Safeway and wonder why the local farms are being foreclosed.

And regarding the French riots, here’s a good link I found this morning:
http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2005/11/6/62039/9755

It’s will only be a matter of time before the citizens of the US question en masse the government an realize its ineffectiveness and self serving interest. The answer is we need at least three more political parties in the US, the Dems/Reps are one in the same any more and mean nothing to the average citizen.

Maybe they’ll see more importance in survivability of future generations versus whose winning the NASCAR race or in The Apprentice. </rant>

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hull3551', 'B')ut I’m surprised at the number of free-market proponents on this thread. Isn’t this what created the problem in the first place – primarily PO? Global exploitation of resources, including petroleum, and labor Suburban Sprawl. Poverty – both in the US and globally. Corporate unaccountability. Evolution of a nation-state to a market-state. Etc.

From my perspective, the current US market system sucks. Virtually everyone I know that works in the corporate sector is working sixty-plus hour work weeks. There is always a fear that they must be included in the next round of layoffs, and nothing is certain.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'Y')ou have to make your own destiny in life.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'Y')ou have to make your own destiny in life.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'Y')ou have to make your own destiny in life.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'P')rivatization of resources that are without substitues, like oil and water should be classed as a crime against humanity that should be handled by the Hague. I pray one day it will be.

[Gary]

As I walk or ride my bike on the streets of Minneapolis, I am aware of the blood-soaked stolen land beneath the pavement.

Most of the economic success of the USA is a result of genocide and slavery. The rape of the natural resources has also made it easy for people to assume that they are "self-made." Violence and access to the low-hanging fruit of natural resources are the foundation of capitalism, not any kind of free market.

The market is not free, never has been, and never will be. Markets are always regulated. They are best regulated so that innocent poor do not suffer and are given as much opportunity as possible. They are best regulated when all values are blended into consideration. This is a dynamic process without final formula or formulation.

Today the markets are rigged to benefit a shrinking minority. It does not matter how many millionaires and billionaires are "created" -- the actual value of money is dilute and uncertain when the injustices of the economic system corrupt the wealthy and oppress the poor.

We do not have balance or feedback in our supposedly "globalised" economy. A "capitalist" or "socialist" or "communist "economy based on an assumption that we consume resources and dump toxins with greater speed and multiplying harm is an insane, homicidal and ultimately suicidal economy.

Any economic system rooted in bloodshed and slavery will destroy itself, no matter the rationalisations we hide behind.

The foundation and end game of our current economic order is genocide and slavery. "Rape is the core cultural paradigm. Denial of this fact is the critical, enabling lie."

And that's the way it is....

And so it goes....

good night, and good luck!

Is a better world possible......?

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'A')lso, Jaws. The poor aren't getting any better off. Farmers who lived a difficult life on a subsistence income are now living in below subsistence poverty. If you don't believe me, google "Monsanto, India, and suicide" Another good google "Privatization, water, farmers, Bolivia"

A disproportionate amount of the spoils of globalization accrue to people who were wealthy to begin with. Diminishing natural resources aren't going to make it any better. Privatization of resources that are without substitues, like oil and water should be classed as a crime against humanity that should be handled by the Hague. I pray one day it will be.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'P')lease use examples of capitalist countries if you're going to make a complaint about capitalism.

[MrBill]

Economic Mismanagement Pure & Simple
Argentina has always had trouble paying the bills - from its first default in 1827, shortly after independence from Spain, to 2001, when, amid rioting and political chaos, the country suspended payment on a $142 billion mountain of debt.
Argentina has defaulted on debt payments five times in its history. Following the first default in 1827, there were two more in the 19th century. The failure to repay a loan in 1890 caused a panic in London, then the world's financial capital. The country defaulted again in 1982, caught in the fallout from Mexico's debt crisis. And the government is still looking for a way to restart payments from its 2001 default.
These are symptoms of a people who refuse to live within their means, and is Argentina's culture of credit and its negative impact on what was once South America's shining star. A country who’s wealth once rivaled that of France and Canada. But for mismanagement and failed social and economic policies it should still be a successful middle income country.

Ethnic & Religious Strife Major Causes
Indonesia’s problems stem from ethnic and religious tensions because it is an island archipelago with many different people living under a central government that few feel represents their local interests. And for the most part corrupt leaders and military dictators have not represented the various sub-sets of the Indonesian people. It has been referred to as The Unlikely Nation.

From its inception after independence there has been a low grade civil war waging between those proponents of a secular state and those who would prefer an Islamic one. Not too mention that many rural Indonesians became embroiled in the same communist battles as did many of the surrounding countries in Asia during the Cold War. All along ethnic and religious tensions are manipulated by local strongmen. In 1967, Indonesia became a dictatorship under a facade of parliamentary government, which lasted until after Soeharto’s resignation in 1998. In 1997 Indonesia fell victim to the Asian financial and economic crisis, accompanied by the worst drought in 50 years and falling prices for oil, gas, and other commodity exports. The rupiah plummeted, inflation soared and capital flight accelerated.

France pays for its colonial past & socialist present
Whereas France’s current problems can be directly traced to its colonial past and its failure to give up its colonies when other European powers did and convinced many of these now French citizens that they had a better future under a French government than they would have on their own. Of course, this means liberté, egalité et fraternité, which is the great lie of the French system that is run by a very select group of business leaders and politicians all drawn from the elite ranks of the Eni’s.
However, the French economic model is based on strong unions and laws as a balance to this political power held in elite hands. High unemployment comes from a very inflexible labor market that is controlled very tightly by the unions for the benefit of those with jobs at the expense of those without jobs. The mainly N. Africans who’s parents came to France in the 1960’s and 70’s. They have not been given the future that France promised. France cannot give them this future because of generations of failed social policies, which stymied the market. France has been able to perpetuate some successful French company mainly be joining international clubs and then fighting tooth & nail for French exceptionalism. Building national champions using first state aid and protection from competition and now using EU aid and protection from competition. This all works fine for those with a job, but does nothing to lift those immigrants and disenfranchised out of their outer city slums. The street has always remained the last bastion of public outrage at their government made up of elites. Farmers, truckers, fishermen and even public unions take to the streets not so much as a last resort but as a bargaining strategy. It should come as no surprise that the Muslim youths have also co-opted this strategy to get the government’s attention.
Class Struggle?
I think you have three different countries each with problems largely of their own making. Although I think Indonesia is less guilty than Argentina or France. Populist governments are always more willing to look for external excuses to deflect blame from themselves. Argentina blames the USA and the IMF instead of Argentine government’s prolific nature. France blames globalization and the AngloSaxon business model. But the elites are to blame for favoring a system that they can control by keeping the rest of French workers complacent. Indonesia uses the current war on terror to excuse its crackdown on its own militants. Interestingly it did not allow Tsunami relief to reach some of the worst affected areas because these are areas controlled by rebels and enemies of the government.
I cannot really call this a class struggle other than it is a fight between the haves and have-nots and those outsiders who want political power, but are unlikely to be any different than those currently in power once they achieve it? Of all the coups and tin-pot dictators which have succeeded in making their country better? France is a democratic country with a nominally market economy. Its failures to solve these problems should be a wake-up call for all those that think a cradle to grave social safety net is the answer to all a country’s problems. Argentina found out that debt default was a quick fix and they have played that card five times. I don’t think you can blame their default in 1827 on globalization or the IMF? Just local politicians looking for a convenient scape goat for their own ineptitude and corruption. I am only amazed that they find such a willing external audience that is incapable or unwilling to see these problems for what they are?

[threadbear]

Mr Bill, The globalist strategies of the IMF and other lending institutions, working hand in glove with large corporations, and NGO's, simply take a bad situation, created by the tin pot dictators of whom you speak, and make it worse. The two aren't mutually exclusive and work harmoniously with one another.

And yes...there are populist leaders, freely elected, who are not tin pot dictators, who are anti Anglo American. Their countries are doing better than before, as they look to lending institutions, other than the IMF and World Bank for a way out of their fiscal mess. Govts, like the Malaysian govt, who took such heat because they erected a monetary fire wall between themselves and globalist policies, did much better in the ensuing collapse of the currencies of their region, in the late 90's.

The strategy of the world band and the IMF is to bail out dictatorships, impose harsh lending rules which force the dictator's economy wide open, so their natural resource sector is sold at fire sale prices to trans national corporate vultures.

This is how "free" trade works. And this, btw, is what the US has to look forward to if they are ever in a position to need a kind of bail out. Seeing as 51 % of the IMF is owned by the US itself, the IMF, of course, couldn't help. There's only one institution large and wealthy enough to help US; China.

China could continue to prop the US, but only with harsh sanctions in place. They need living space and the US needs credit. Perhaps the arrangement will be subtle takeover, in the form of relaxed immigration law. The question is, can the US absorb 100 million or more Chinese? If Yanks double and triple up, they can probably absorb more. Tripling up will likely make it easier to pay the rent their Chinese landlords will charge them, after buying up their property for cents on the dollar.

I see the Western World, US and perhaps Canada and Europe too, as having to live through a nightmare similar to one they created in the third world. We really need this to break down along simple Aesop's fable lines, so people can appreciate the cause and effect, karmic nature of it.

[hull3551]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '
')The free market society actually solves many of these problems, but it cannot solve them more than people are willing to work to solve them...[/i].

[jaws]

How stupid is it to blame globalization and the IMF when we are right now seeing a proletarian rebellion in the flagship for social-democracy? The IMF is just a lending agency. Their only crime was lending to countries who were doomed to fail. Had they not made the loans and imposed conditionality, the countries would have collapsed even faster.

Social justice begins at home, and it begins with economic freedom.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'H')ad they not made the loans and imposed conditionality, the countries would have collapsed even faster.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '
')Except that the conditions they imposed exacebated the problems.

Needing a loan from the IMF is a death sentance. Return to sustenance level, it's cheaper.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '
')Except that the conditions they imposed exacebated the problems.

Needing a loan from the IMF is a death sentance. Return to sustenance level, it's cheaper.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'H')ow do you know that? How do you know the collapse of these countries wouldn't have been even more catastrophic?

[rogerhb]

No "jaws" or "MrBill" response to claims that IMF and WorldBank work against the interests of African nations?

Do we call that a conclusion?