PeakOil is You
What is Moral Behavior - Both Pre & Post Peak
by NevadaGhosts » Tue 28 Sep 2004, 18:13:16
Rule number one for post-peak... Anything that moves gets shot.
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Basis of morals
by Little pig » Tue 28 Sep 2004, 19:18:58
I think the libertarian view helps in making these type decisions. Freedom means doing as you please so long as you do not commit an act of aggression against another. You have every right to use force, including lethal force, to protect yourself and family against acts of aggression of others. You have no right to initiate acts of force against others. The degree of force you use to defend yourself be proportional to the degree of aggression against you.
As a practical matter, in a worst case dieoff, you may well be faced with a kill or be killed choice. You are free to choose not to defend yourself and if you are inclined to let others kill you and take your food, then it is probably good for the future of mankind that you exit since your genetic material would not contribute to the survival drive of the species. You have no right to force your family to follow your decision not to use lethal force to protect yourself and them, as they are free also and have the same right as you to protect themselves.
The aftermath of killing in self defense is not pleasant, but that is just the way it is. It seems to me strange that you would even consider letting yourself and family perish.
As a practical matter, in a worst case dieoff, you may well be faced with a kill or be killed choice. You are free to choose not to defend yourself and if you are inclined to let others kill you and take your food, then it is probably good for the future of mankind that you exit since your genetic material would not contribute to the survival drive of the species. You have no right to force your family to follow your decision not to use lethal force to protect yourself and them, as they are free also and have the same right as you to protect themselves.
The aftermath of killing in self defense is not pleasant, but that is just the way it is. It seems to me strange that you would even consider letting yourself and family perish.
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by Coolman » Tue 28 Sep 2004, 19:36:08
If the worst case senerio hits I plan on fighting to protect my family and friends. Thus meaning my life post peak will probably be short because I could see myself in combat a lot. (In the worst case senerio.)
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by Itch » Tue 28 Sep 2004, 19:55:52
Well, if some of you do expect to end up killing people, you might want to go on a few first person shooter binges every now and then, or play them casually. These games, while horribly unrealistc, will be a good tool to desensitize you to violence, and are also good for hand-eye coordination. This doesn't mean that you won't fuck up and get blown away, but it might be a bit easier shooting at someone from a distance, because they might appear to be another zombie or whatever.
Of course, you can always get a gun and shoot rodents at a long range. I believe that now is the time to do that sort of stuff; things won't be this cheap much longer.
Killing someone at a close range is entirely different, and I think you might want to do some mock trials with a friend, if you can see yourself confronted with such a situation.
Of course, you can always get a gun and shoot rodents at a long range. I believe that now is the time to do that sort of stuff; things won't be this cheap much longer.
Killing someone at a close range is entirely different, and I think you might want to do some mock trials with a friend, if you can see yourself confronted with such a situation.
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Re: What is Moral Behavior - Both Pre & Post Peak
by MarkL » Tue 28 Sep 2004, 20:10:24
I'm with you Hawk, unless you're a physicist, chemist or better yet, a person that can influence policy, why bother trying to maintain the status quo? My vote matters little. Both presidential candidates will do little to confront the multinationals. The Boy Scouts have it right - be prepared.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', 'T')he real moral question seems to be, however, how far should I be willing to go to prevent the unprepared mobs from taking what I may be able to stockpile?
I admit I am not sure. Is it moral to be willing to kill or any number of people to protect my family? I lean toward yes, but surely, even that must have limitations?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', 'T')he real moral question seems to be, however, how far should I be willing to go to prevent the unprepared mobs from taking what I may be able to stockpile?
I admit I am not sure. Is it moral to be willing to kill or any number of people to protect my family? I lean toward yes, but surely, even that must have limitations?
If your in a lawless area, the ability to accurately determine the intentions of a stranger would be a good skill to develop. This will be about impossible without the help of a community.
Getting reliable intelligence from your neighbors about a group of people in the area could help you determine beggars from thieves.
Having extra community members available for surveillance and defense could mean the difference between avoidance and confrontation.
Having the ability to run a 'checkpoint' away from your nest egg or your community will prevent the would be thieves from eyeing your resources. It'd be better to turn them away at the gate instead of your doorstep.
If you haven't seen the Post Peak Rules for Engagement thread, you might find it useful.
regards,
MarkL
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Re: What is Moral Behavior - Both Pre & Post Peak
by Jack » Tue 28 Sep 2004, 21:46:35
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', 'I')s it moral to be willing to kill or any number of people to protect my family? I lean toward yes, but surely, even that must have limitations?
I guess I see three issues - morality, legality, and practicality.
Morally, I would do whatever was required to take care of me and those under my protection. That means that, under certain dire circumstances, I would be perfectly willing to eliminate an arbitrarily large number of people.
Legality comes into play, though. The most extreme scenario suggests a complete breakdown of law and order, but that's likely to exist for only a short period if at all. So if one executed a child for stealing a watermelon, there would probably be some consequences at any time, and in any society. One really ought to know something of present law, since that's likely to be the starting point for whatever comes next. Present law is, arguably, a reflection of society's current estimation of moral values - and moral values seem resistant to change.
Finally, there's practicality. If one gets into enough fights, one will eventually lose. Those one eliminates may have friends or family that will be offended by the removal - no matter how justified - and the survivors may come after one.
If your locale has a concealed handgun law, you might wish to qualify for the license. The basic training regarding law and handgun familiarity cannot hurt. Even if you can't get such a license, a basic gun course might be of value. Also, you might wish to inquire at your local gun shop regarding training - say, against multiple assailants. Emphasize speed and accuracy, clearing jams and firearm malfunctions, and dealing with stress and you'll have prepared yourself well.
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by nigel » Wed 29 Sep 2004, 06:29:37
Okay, I read all that survival stuff and agreed with Barbara's barb.
When I got down to " Reinforced concrete is your friend:-).", I had serious thoughts about never participating here again. This is whacko-die-off-cowboy-movie-gamer stuff which skips over a few problematical issues and obvious facts:
1.Peak oil IS NOT NO OIL. There will more likely be a plateaux followed by many years of decline. ie there will be A LONG ADJUSTMENT PERIOD before NO OIL.
2.Peak oil ignores/sidelines shale oil and tar sands. There's gobfulls of this stuff and most of it under the control of you whacko types. More expensive, harder to produce - but has obvious utility
3.The scenario does not allow for progress, rebalanced use, technological development, alternatives. human ingenuity. It just jumps straight into whacko gun kill macho toy soldier stuff. One day normal, next day Rambo. It's laughable.
4.It pays no heed to the total dependence some places have on pumped water for example. Even given a sudden halt to oil, the USA gov would rapidly have to relocate people, introduce rationing, set up refugee camps etc. All this would creep up on you whackoes. The country side is exactly where the cities will have to be evacuated - bit by bit. (Search eg. for Operation Sassoon - UK.) Are you suggesting, at the start of this process that you set up Camp Whacko? Or do you wait until - when? Five years down the line?
5. All this baby talk about communities makes me laugh. AMerica is a community. Like it or not, you'll sink or swim as such or end up cavemen. Grow up.
6.Social change. Moving over to a less wasteful world is already in progress. Painfully slow progress. Look at the German movements in energy use. Look at what the world is up to with Kyoto (flawed but better than nothing?). Where are the Yanks? Out of it because you might have to pay your way.
This ME ME ME tendency is the achilles heel of the survivalist. The selfish person will be the community's enemy. The community does not stop at the parish boundary, it stops at the edge of civilisation. Once you machine gun the starving, you're the one on the wrongside of that edge.
When I got down to " Reinforced concrete is your friend:-).", I had serious thoughts about never participating here again. This is whacko-die-off-cowboy-movie-gamer stuff which skips over a few problematical issues and obvious facts:
1.Peak oil IS NOT NO OIL. There will more likely be a plateaux followed by many years of decline. ie there will be A LONG ADJUSTMENT PERIOD before NO OIL.
2.Peak oil ignores/sidelines shale oil and tar sands. There's gobfulls of this stuff and most of it under the control of you whacko types. More expensive, harder to produce - but has obvious utility
3.The scenario does not allow for progress, rebalanced use, technological development, alternatives. human ingenuity. It just jumps straight into whacko gun kill macho toy soldier stuff. One day normal, next day Rambo. It's laughable.
4.It pays no heed to the total dependence some places have on pumped water for example. Even given a sudden halt to oil, the USA gov would rapidly have to relocate people, introduce rationing, set up refugee camps etc. All this would creep up on you whackoes. The country side is exactly where the cities will have to be evacuated - bit by bit. (Search eg. for Operation Sassoon - UK.) Are you suggesting, at the start of this process that you set up Camp Whacko? Or do you wait until - when? Five years down the line?
5. All this baby talk about communities makes me laugh. AMerica is a community. Like it or not, you'll sink or swim as such or end up cavemen. Grow up.
6.Social change. Moving over to a less wasteful world is already in progress. Painfully slow progress. Look at the German movements in energy use. Look at what the world is up to with Kyoto (flawed but better than nothing?). Where are the Yanks? Out of it because you might have to pay your way.
This ME ME ME tendency is the achilles heel of the survivalist. The selfish person will be the community's enemy. The community does not stop at the parish boundary, it stops at the edge of civilisation. Once you machine gun the starving, you're the one on the wrongside of that edge.
- nigel
by jato » Wed 29 Sep 2004, 06:53:28
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '5'). All this baby talk about communities makes me laugh. AMerica is a community. Like it or not, you'll sink or swim as such or end up cavemen. Grow up.
So should I prepare to sink? Or Swim? How do I prepare so I don't have to end up like cavemen?
What are you saying here? One one hand you tell us we should not prepare for individual/small group survival (because everything is going to work itself out peacefully). On the other hand you tell us we might end up like cavemen. Which is it?
If you are saying the USA is making/will make the wrong choices about how we deal with Peak Oil, I agree %100. Which is why I have to prepare to survive those wrong choices that we are about to make.
Did that make sense?
- jato
Keep it together
by Madpaddy » Wed 29 Sep 2004, 09:04:09
If you believe as I do that most Western Governments are aware of Peak Oil - don't you think they will try to preserve their countries instead of letting all and sundry set up fiefdoms everywhere. The industrialised nations will offset peak oil by pushing everybody else off the lifeboat first by whatever means necessary. I think it's more likely that you American survivalist types will end up putting in some combat time in the Persian Gulf/ Central America/ Africa before you are shooting at looters trying to ransack your 1 acre homesteads. Get a grip folks.
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by MarkL » Wed 29 Sep 2004, 10:41:16
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nigel', 'T')his ME ME ME tendency is the achilles heel of the survivalist. The selfish person will be the community's enemy. The community does not stop at the parish boundary, it stops at the edge of civilisation. Once you machine gun the starving, you're the one on the wrongside of that edge.
What are you, part of some sort of MI-6 psy-ops campaign designed to keep that consumer confidence ranking high? (gotta keep the conspiracy theories going, ya know)
If you've spent any time at all researching the subject, you'd see the STEEP decline in oil production after a peak. This applies to one well, a field or a nations oil. With the improved technology in the oil industry, they are sucking those wells dry even quicker. With water injection, you go from peak to zero production in the same instant.
The modern consumer buys their food from a big box food store. The average meal travels over a thousand miles to get to your dinner table. As oil becomes less and less available, will this be sustainable?
Alternative technologies simply don't have the energy equivalent of oil. So you want to fill all the deserts in the world with solar cells and wind turbines? How long do you think this will take? How about we tell all the farmers to quit with the food crops so we can make bio fuels. Sounds like a plan!
When the angry and hungry hordes show up on our doorstep, we'll tell 'em that Nigel has enough for everybody. Where do you live?
regards,
Mark
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